Arete Podcast #39: Donald Trump & Aaron Burr: Same Fight, New Era with Author Dennis Brennan

[00:00:00] This podcast is brought to you by the part of your Broadway World Podcast, hand by the Arete Media Podcast Pantheon.

[00:00:31] Welcome everybody to this episode of the Arete Podcast. I'm joined by Dennis Brennan. And to keep things brief, I'm just going to touch on a couple of career highlights for you. You're a historian, you're an author, you were a former, were you a superintendent? And at what level or? No, school board member.

[00:00:51] School board member. Yes, yes. So you've had a long and storied career. And basically, I just want to get started by letting you tell the viewers who is Dennis Brennan. Yeah, I think you touched upon a few of those things. I started off in journalism, while I was still going to law school. Small community newspaper, working for someone as a reporter.

[00:01:19] or editor eventually.ρώ businessman explained I did and then started my own newspaper, which even was difficult that many years ago. Newspapers were already starting to see their end of their shelf life.

[00:01:33] Now it's rare if you see them at all. At least back then, you saw people taking the big fold out and reading through the paper. If you go anywhere, I go into a restaurant or on a train, you probably don't see more than one person doing that anymore. Everybody's on their phone. That's where they're getting their news.

[00:01:51] So newspapers are finding their way to the big scrap heap. But finished law school. And really, I had studied journalism college. That's where I was going to go. But the job offers were very slim. There was one in Arkansas and one in Iowa. One paid $9,000, one paid $13,000.

[00:02:16] At the time, I was working part-time in a grocery store making $14,000. So I'm not that dumb. I'm not taking a job that pays less. I'd work full-time. So I went to law school, practiced law, still practice law. But I've touched somewhat in every area, primarily real estate, some legislative work. But I have done criminal work, divorce, which is the worst.

[00:02:45] So I've heard. So yeah. Anybody that's better than one can tell you it's really bad. But even if you're the attorney, it's bad because both the husband and wife hate each other, but then they also hate each other's attorney. And maybe their own before it's over. Well, not only that, I got to think that in that line where the stink of it, to a certain extent, rubs off on you just because you're in the general vicinity.

[00:03:10] Yeah. It's very difficult, too. When you're in divorce and you try to tell people, this is what's going to happen. It's very statutory. Anyone can do it out of law school. I mean, it was simple. Like, I had no training and I'm taking clients.

[00:03:26] And you tell them, okay, this is what the statute says. You have children. This is what the child support is. And no matter what you said, they more likely believe some friend who had told them differently that you're going to get X from your spouse or he or she is going to have to do this.

[00:03:45] It's like, no, that's not true. That's not going to happen. And in the end, 99 times out of 100, they get exactly what I told them. But then they were mad at me because they spent money. Right. So that was something I had to get out of. Did some corporate work, a lot of title insurance. Always had the idea of writing, though, even with the, you know, I think maybe the journalism background.

[00:04:11] And I dabbled in it, doing some work online. But overall, I didn't put any real attention to doing something like a book until now. You know, and now I'm, you know, fully integrating myself into writing books. And first one is, you know, published. Second one is being reviewed now by an editor. And we'll see where that goes.

[00:04:37] Sounds good, which I do. We'll touch on your book right now. So your book, which is called DC Swamp. Oh, sorry. DC Swamp Strikes Back Strikes Back. It draws. Apparently, it draws a lot of parallels between Aaron Burr and Donald Trump. And without spoiling the book for everybody, can you connect some of those dots? Because the idea of that is just absolutely fascinating to me.

[00:05:02] Yeah, I think a lot of people, you know, what they know of Aaron Burr isn't much. I mean, because we're living in the times of Donald Trump, we all seem to know a lot about him right now. Or we think we do. And he's out there, you know, he's always telling us more about himself. So that story keeps being built.

[00:05:22] But Aaron Burr, you know, what do we remember from school? We remember that there was a duel with Alexander Hamilton. Alexander Hamilton died. Right. We most of us probably don't remember what they call the Burr conspiracy, which is when they. I do, but I'm a bit I'm a bit of a nerd. I have a question about the Burr conspiracy, actually. OK, and that's you know, that was the probably the other big news about Aaron Burr. Right.

[00:05:50] You had the the duel. Everybody knows. Yeah. The Burr conspiracy. A lot of us probably forgot. You're probably one in a million that remembers. Well, I would venture to guess that most people have never heard of it, which is kind of I touch on this. We have another podcast on our network that deals with Broadway and Disney. And we did a whole we put the musical Hamilton on trial because I'll just be honest.

[00:06:11] I don't I don't think it was very good. But I but I pointed out, I said, listen, like it goes into the whole thing about an artist doesn't have to do anything. But when you're telling a story about historical figures, I think to a point you have a bit of a responsibility insofar as a lot of people are going to watch this and assume that everything you're saying happened, happened.

[00:06:37] And that's the same case as things you omit. And it's like, you're not going to talk at all about the Burr conspiracy here. And you're going to paint Aaron Burr as this guy who's basically just living or living on the coattails of Alexander Hamilton and having basically just a giant amount of resentment, which I mean, to be fair, to a point, he probably wasn't thrilled with Hamilton as an individual. But it expresses in his letters that the duel was one of his largest regrets.

[00:07:06] Right. And I think, you know, you hit on a few points there. I, too, did not like the musical Hamilton. I don't understand why everybody that I talked to would love it. I have a theory. I have a I have a I have a theory of it's basically like a cross between cultural. Oh, gosh, why am I blanking on that word? Basically, it's like pop culture, cultural contamination, basically certain things pop up in the zeitgeist.

[00:07:36] And basically, you're told you're supposed to love this thing. And most people then take it upon it. It's like they go see the thing and they're like they either just go in assuming they're going to love it and then don't really look for critiques or anything like that. And they basically jump on the bandwagon or they watch something, listen to something, eat something, whatever it may be. And they say, well, I didn't really care for this, but everybody says it's great. So I must be wrong. And then they just kind of go.

[00:08:05] They just kind of go with it. Yeah, I think that's true. There's it's like an old form of peer pressure where you're being told it's good. And you're like, well, maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about. I think, you know, you start to question yourself and I would say I'm not the biggest expert on musicals. So maybe I'm wrong there on some of the music. Well, but you can everybody can do basically what I did where it's like, OK, to be fair, maybe I'm missing something.

[00:08:33] But I feel like I know a little bit more about Alexander Hamilton than the average just rank and file American out there because I like to read history nerd, blah, blah, blah, blah. I can't find a single person or I haven't yet found a single person who can explain to me why Hamilton is so great. I'm not dogging on the performances. Some of the performances are absolutely great.

[00:08:56] Lin-Manuel Miranda's not so much, but nobody nobody can point to the thing and say this is what makes Hamilton amazing. Other than something like the casting, which I found as gimmicky and ironic. But we're not we don't have to go into that. But nobody could give me a legitimate reason that resonated with me as to why Hamilton was an incredible piece of art that was, you know, unmissable.

[00:09:23] So, yeah, well, sometimes I think it's the critics with anything. Why does anything blow up and become popular? You'll even see it, you know, on TV shows or, you know, musical people. And, you know, I heard so many people tell me with the Super Bowl, oh, Bad Buddies, you know, you're going to love it. I'm thinking I never saw a bad buddy do anything. I don't know. Couldn't name a song. And, you know, after watching it, I still couldn't name anything.

[00:09:51] And, you know, so there's different tastes. For sure. For sure. You know, but critics jump out there and say, whatever, the musical's good or, you know, and sometimes that's out of New York. And, you know, then the rest of the country is supposed to see, oh, I've got to go see this Hamilton. It's now in Chicago where I'm at or it's, you know, wherever it's in Iowa. And people go with that expectation like you're saying, well, everybody says it's great.

[00:10:19] I mean, how many times that's happened with movies, too, where you go to a movie after it's got all the big reviews and people have talked about it. They've been on talk shows. You're like, well, I guess I'll go see it. You know, I've tried to get away from that because now if it's something, you know, subject wise that I don't really have an interest in, why would I go? I, because other people think it's good doesn't matter. It's, you know, but we do it. We do it with restaurants.

[00:10:46] You know, you find out yourself when you go to a restaurant and you say, wow, they were wrong. I waited in line for 45 minutes to eat there. It's awful. And I paid how much? Right. And it turns out, wow, it's no better than what I already was eating. And so I think some of that, yeah. How do you catch that fire, though, whenever you're doing something? And Hamilton, to its credit, if it gets any credit, it was able to do that for whatever reason. Oh, no, I'll never. Yeah, I'll never take away its spot as a cultural phenomenon.

[00:11:16] I just make the case that it's undeserved for the most part. Not that it's horrible. I've seen way worse shows than Hamilton. But to the degree that and especially since, again, you're talking about historical people and it paints Hamilton as kind of like a basically like a flawed saint, but he knew he was flawed. And it's kind of like, I don't know that you can make that case. And Jefferson's character is completely backward.

[00:11:46] I mean, but that's the whole. But Aaron Burr especially, I was kind of surprised with how he was painted in this. Because I thought going in that they were going to either paint him as the villain of the piece or as sort of a deconstruction of the idea of who Aaron Burr was. And they kind of did that, but they didn't know enough about them or it comes across as they didn't know enough about him to really accomplish that goal.

[00:12:12] Because he does kind of come across as somebody who should have been the good guy, but for whatever reason wasn't. And it's kind of weird. Yeah, well, I think because he's played as the nemesis of Hamilton throughout history that they couldn't do that with the way they wrote this thing. I think. Hard to say. We'd have to get Lynn Miranda on.

[00:12:38] I would say, but I think also the fact, too, I would have recommended they not do that had I been consulted in any, which I never would have been. But I would have said, well, I don't think enough people know. I don't think enough people know who Aaron Burr even is to really make a go of this mission. So I think, yeah, I think you should stick with Hamilton. But how historically accurate do you want to be and how much do you want it to ruin your show? Because it's going to. Right. But, you know, and you touched on that with the historical accuracy.

[00:13:07] So you run into that in other cases, too. And, you know, whenever they say based on a true story, you'll see it in movies or, you know, it remains to be a Fargo based on a true story. And then they give you this whole explanation of why. A completely fictional account of. Right. That we've made up all of this, but it's a true story. Yeah, it's a true story in that you're telling the story, but that's about it. And so that's always rough.

[00:13:37] So anytime you see those, it's a you have to kind of go in with the idea, well, this may not be 100 percent accurate. But the problem is a lot of viewers, whether they're at Hamilton or something else, are taking it as gospel. Right. And they're not going to do they're not going to do the research, which. Again, to a point I understand, but I'm I'm a weird person. Again, I will throw this out there. I'm weird. If I watch a movie.

[00:14:02] Or a TV show that's based on historical events, I immediately go and research it because I'm like, who was real? How real was this? Because I know some of it's at least what you have to for narrative reasons. You have to combine characters or condense events and things like that. And oftentimes, though, the true story is a thousand times more fascinating, but not as clean. Right. And, you know, I find myself doing the same thing.

[00:14:28] So, you know, often you see something and you have to ask that question, you know, going on the Internet, like, is this true or is this? It's the same way we see social media. People post things, even news, you know, news media that's considered unbiased. You have to look it up and go, wait a minute. I haven't seen this anywhere. I want to know the whole story. They left something out, I think, but maybe not. Most of the time they have.

[00:14:56] It's like, wait, you've really slanted this story down. And so, yeah, we've all become little investigative journalists or something. We shouldn't have to do that on a movie, but maybe that's a I don't know. Maybe I'm one of those people that just can't enjoy it for what it is. OK, you said it's based on a true story in my mind. I know what that really means. Most of this is made up. Yeah. Well, I always use Braveheart as the example. Braveheart is a movie that I absolutely love.

[00:15:26] But anytime I watch it with somebody, I'm like, that's actually not how it happened in that battle. There actually was a bridge at that battle. You know, like, you know, you know, so it's getting deep. Yeah. Is it is a great movie? Absolutely. I love that movie. But to be honest, I'd love for them to make a more accurate William Wallace movie to kind of go. It's like, here's the Hollywood one. And here's the one. If you want to know what actually happened, watch watch this one. Well, you know, and I think it's the same way when you take even what are considered great movies.

[00:15:56] You take The Godfather, you know, whether it's one and two, and then you'll have people go, well, it's not. Goodfellas is much more realistic. And it's like, OK, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm sure there's other movies that are even more realistic. But they're good movies. Right. Yeah. And you've got to there's a balance you strike there. And I give a way more leeway. Like I give way more leeway to a movie like 300, which is based on a comic book. A lot of people don't know that. But it's extremely faithful to its source material.

[00:16:26] But its source material is a highly fictionized version of what happened at and leading up to the Battle of Thermopylae. Well, there you go. And so, you know, so some of it's probably on us. Yeah, for sure.

[00:16:42] But the reason I wanted to bring up Aaron Burr, though, is and then we'll get back to the connections between him and Donald Trump, because the way it was framed in the tidbit of the synopsis I was reading, I was like instantly I thought, OK, well, if he's making parallels between Aaron Burr and Donald Trump, that tells me that the Burr conspiracy may not be what it's been reported to. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So is the Burr conspiracy a real thing?

[00:17:09] And or was it overblown and political fodder for his opponents? Yeah. Yeah. And that's the crux of it, really. That's like the worst thing that happened. They they ruined Aaron Burr with the Burr conspiracy. It's most people. And, you know, at least when I was in elementary school, when they talked about Aaron Burr, it's like, well, his career was over after he had the duel and shot and killed Alexander Hamilton. Well, as you dig deeper. No, not really.

[00:17:37] I mean, the Burr conspiracy is what really did it. That, you know, dueling back then, while technically illegal in most places, was done. I mean, it's strange. It was, you know, awaited men settled their disputes, unfortunately. But the conspiracy, you know, we've and it's not only myself. It's been done elsewhere. It kind of breaks down what Aaron Burr was charged with. He was charged with treason.

[00:18:06] You know, this idea that he was going to form his own country or at the very least, there were two different stories. But one was he's going to form his own country in what's now the, you know, southwestern part of the United States, you know, which was under Spanish control.

[00:18:26] And, you know, at that point, you know, they claim they had documents that proved he had conspired with a gentleman named Wilkinson who was in the U.S. military, but also worked for Spain. He was on their payroll, which is kind of strange that you could have two sources of income from two different countries. That in itself sounds perhaps a little treason-y. Yeah, on the surface.

[00:18:54] But, hey, I mean, what Uncle Sam don't know won't hurt him, right? I guess. But, you know, they charged Burr based on correspondence between the two men. But it was Wilkinson who was decoding the letters back and forth. Nobody else knew what it said except Burr. And, you know, did Burr plan on doing something? I don't know if there's evidence that he did or didn't. You know, I leave it.

[00:19:21] There's others that have written looking at the same documents that Burr is completely innocent. That this was all Wilkinson making up what the letters said. In truth, we don't know. Wilkinson, you know, told different stories. And that certainly leads you to think perhaps Burr was framed. And it took a while for Jefferson to get on board. You know, Jefferson was the president at the time. Yeah.

[00:19:50] And at first when he was told, hey, Burr is a traitor. This is what he's doing. He was like, no, no way. Because, you know, and I detail in the book, you know, Burr really more than anyone was more was responsible for Jefferson winning the presidency. And, you know, people kind of think of like, well, that's a no brainer. Thomas Jefferson. Anybody could get him elected. You know, wouldn't you like to be the political consultant who says, I've got Jefferson. Who do you have?

[00:20:19] You know, I was like, that's a pretty good candidate. But it was really Burr, you know, maneuvering politically in New York to get the votes, the electoral votes for him. So he was reticent to say Burr was a traitor in any way.

[00:20:36] But all of Jefferson's people, much like, you know, the current day deep state, you had people like Madison, Monroe, a lot of the Virginia contingent who really did not like Aaron Burr and were out to get him. They were out to prevent him from being president in the future. So the conspiracy, I think, is thrown into question. It's something we never really questioned in school. You were just told that was what happened and Burr was this bad actor.

[00:21:06] You know, the only thing I can say to the other side of it that makes you think at times either Burr is a comedian or he was almost admitting it. Because all the time after he had won his cases for treason, you know, he was found not guilty. He goes and goes over to Europe. He doesn't have a great life after all of this. He's politically just ruined.

[00:21:33] But, you know, he was asked originally, did you have anything to do with it? You know, and he's like, no way. There's a, you know, he would rather, you know, give up his own life than to commit treason against the U.S.

[00:21:50] But, you know, after the Spanish-American War, you know, took place, he made kind of a smart aleck comment that like he was just, you know, 10 years ahead of time when the U.S. And it's like, wait a minute, what are you saying? Did you do it or did you not do it? So. Well, and one could make the argument that maybe he was somewhere in the middle. Maybe he saw an opportunity. It's like, hey, we can land grab. Because I don't know the timeline between that and the Louisiana Purchase happening.

[00:22:19] But, I mean, it seemed pretty clear that at least most of the United States government was kind of primed to grab some more land. So maybe he saw an opportunity through Wilkinson to get some more territory. And it just, the idea of it got spun. Because the narrative I'd always heard was that Burr was trying to grab land and power and make himself King Aaron Burr. And I forget what he was going to call the place, allegedly. But that was the narrative I'd always heard. Right.

[00:22:48] And that's one of them. And that's one that Wilkinson told. But Wilkinson also told a different narrative that kind of goes closer to your first thought there. That when they first talked about it, they would go, they would have their army. The idea was Burr was going to travel down the river, meet up with Wilkinson, and they would go and fight. And once the fight started, they were convinced that the United States would jump in and back them. That they were doing this for the country.

[00:23:17] Now, you can't start wars on behalf of your own country. So that's not a great explanation. But it certainly makes Burr look better than he wanted to be king. Right. Or dictator, whatever you might want to say. I think, you know, Burr denied that any of that was true. So, you know, we're left with Burr saying none of it's true.

[00:23:41] We have Wilkinson telling two different stories and the government being unable to prove treason. So that's where it ends up. Now, despite all that, he's ruined. You know, whether you could win in court and lose your reputation, which I think he did. And unfortunately, that's the case. Hi, this is Bill Farmer. You know, the voice of Goofy and other characters.

[00:24:08] You got to watch the part of your Broadway World podcast right here. It's going to be fun. Yep. So with that being said, everyone who's listening to this should be starting to see, if you didn't already, some of the parallels between Burr and Trump. And maybe you're thinking of other historical figures. But there were a lot of court cases. And I assume Burr was involved in more scandal than just that. Well, yeah.

[00:24:39] Burr, obviously, he was, you know, he was tried for his duel with Hamilton. But that was something, you know, he was acquitted on that, which is kind of strange. But he was. You know, that's one that we know they both, you know, it's like mutual combat, I guess. Yeah. So acquitted. You know, with treason, he was tried twice.

[00:25:01] And I think when you see, at least what I saw when I started reading about Aaron Burr, you know, over the last couple of years, I saw the parallels with Trump on how the government was dead set on getting Burr. Like they were always after him. And it didn't matter. You know, and, you know, much like Trump, they filed several cases against Trump. With Burr, you know, they filed one in Kentucky for treason.

[00:25:29] It didn't matter that that wasn't the right jurisdiction. They had a friendly prosecutor that was related to Madison. And, you know, they thought, oh, which we see those kind of parallels with some of Trump's cases. Yeah. And then they take the guy and, you know, basically grab him and travel across the country, which back then, it's not putting him on a nice fighter jet. And sending him home. You know, you're traveling by horseback and buggy. And, you know, so it's a long ride.

[00:26:00] And they're going to try him again for treason, which they did. Isn't that a violation of the Fifth Amendment? Well, I think there were a lot of things violated back then that they didn't seem to hear. That's true. And I guess you could always say, no, it was a state charge, which they also did with Trump. Yeah. But like in the first trial, the reason they were able to get around it is the first one, the judge threw it out. So he never got a guiltier or not guilty.

[00:26:29] It was like, you're not in the right courtroom. So I'm throwing this out. I'm dismissing it on jurisdictional grounds. So they thought, well, we're going to do it at the right grounds. We're going to bring him back. And, you know, the other fascinating thing with Burr is, and it goes to Jefferson, it makes you think less of Jefferson. Actually, Jefferson was directing the whole thing from the White House. Once he got on board, he got on board full force.

[00:26:56] You know, both boots in, it's we're going to bring this guy down, which is very strange since, like I said, a lot of credit for Jefferson's win for president was Burr. You know, if it wasn't for Burr getting New York and it wasn't just that he came from New York. He went to New York.

[00:27:17] He worked the General Assembly there to put the right people in that would vote that way since each state's legislature decided the electoral votes at that time, which I don't think is a great system. But we changed that to give the voters more say. Well, and I do always find it funny that people complain about how the government works now. It's like, oh, go go back. Like, go back. You think it's unfair now. Oh, like. Right. And some of those rules have been changed.

[00:27:47] For sure. Burr was in the middle of a couple of those. Like the first time him and Jefferson ran, they ran against John Adams. And, you know, they lost that one. So, you know, which that was a heck of a choice, Jefferson and Adams. I always find it funny when, you know, people nowadays, no matter who's running, they'll say, we can't come up with anything better than these two people. And I think I've said it myself. Like, oh, my God.

[00:28:16] These are the out of all the people we have there. You had Jefferson and Adams. And at least now, you know, as we look back, we go, wow, that's pretty good. How do you come up with candidates like that anymore? But, you know, the first time, to an extent, you know, Burr was kind of blamed by some of Jefferson's people. Not by Jefferson.

[00:28:39] But instead of just, you know, moping about or quitting politics, Burr went back and did the hard work to change, you know, the law. Well, not the law, but the votes. And, you know, the law eventually changed in the second election because Jefferson and Burr running together as a team tied. Burr did such a great job. He brought in so many votes for Jefferson and Adams self. They were tied.

[00:29:05] And back then, the top two vote getters, you know, so that's why we had Jefferson as the vice president for Adams because they were the top two vote getters. Because in the second election when Jefferson won, him and Burr were the top two and it went to Congress to take a vote. I think, you know, there was another controversy, but they've changed both of those things. We don't have that anymore. Thank God. Could you imagine, you know, you're running for vice president. Now you're the president.

[00:29:34] And the guy that was running with you is. Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, I'm not going to lie. I, I'm a fan of governmental gridlock. So I, I think that system would be interesting having not lived through it. I'm sure living through it, it was much more frustrating than I'm imagining, but I don't know. Yeah. And I don't know if the voters, like if you vote, you usually vote for the president. Typically. Yeah. Yeah. It's nice to have a good vice presidential candidate, but there's been so many that. It's a consideration.

[00:30:03] For me, it's always a consideration because it's like, okay, if something happens to the president, which historically speaking is rare, but I mean, the possibility is always there, especially if your candidate is older, you know, who's, who's going to fill that seat should something happen to the president. But you're right. Most people are voting for the president and the vice president is kind of the vice president's almost like, okay, what, what, what demographic can we get to latch onto us by this choice anymore? Right. Sure. Yeah.

[00:30:33] And I think, you know, some of the famous ones when John Kennedy ran, he took Lyndon Johnson, who he really disliked, who really disliked him. But hey, if you can bring in the South, especially Texas, we can win this thing. And what it comes down to is, yeah, I want to win. I don't want to lose. And yeah, had he not had Johnson, Kennedy doesn't win that. I mean, I guess if he doesn't have Chicago with votes, he doesn't win that either.

[00:31:01] But he had other help is what you're saying. Yeah. So I'm told. So, so they say. Yeah. So, I mean, but are there other than trials and whatnot, are there, because I've heard in some of your other podcasts, you're also talking about how like both Trump and Burr had kind of unintentionally made some enemies before they really, really got into politics. And I'm just curious at what some of these other parallels might be. Yeah.

[00:31:29] I think, you know, a lot of it starts, you know, some of it's basic. Like you have Burr, his father started Princeton University. Trump, it's been well chronicled. His father started Trump. I mean, he was also a developer on a different scale, but a developer. So each of them, you know, perhaps started, you know, on second base, you know, which is nice.

[00:31:55] Nobody, you know, while I didn't get that opportunity, I wouldn't mind starting at second base. Right. Yeah. You're at least, and I mean, to be fair, it's like you can't really, you can't really blame them for where they start. You can, I guess, I guess you can't blame them on what they do with that, but that's a separate issue. But that's interesting. They both kind of started out with a leg up, so to speak. Right. And they both, they both took advantage of that. Now, you know, both are from New York. You know, they, they both were naive.

[00:32:25] And that, you know, Trump had no political experience except donating to people, usually of the other party. Right. Almost exclusively to the other party. So kind of a surprise there. Burr was obscure too. He had spent two years in the legislature and he caught the eye of some people in Jefferson's party who thought, hey, this guy can really speak. He's arguing here and he's, you know, he's making a lot of sense. He could help us.

[00:32:54] But, you know, so Jefferson really had nothing to do with picking Aaron Burr the first time. He was like, okay, whoever, just put him on the ticket. And, you know, if you believe what's said in Jefferson's letters and so forth, which, you know, that's how he depicts it. In the second run, he wanted, you know, when they won, he wanted Aaron Burr because of the work Burr did. And he made sure he was on the ticket.

[00:33:21] And then by the third race for Jefferson, he doesn't want Aaron Burr and dumps him. So, you know, all over the board, kind of, which I found a little disloyal. You know, if a guy got you elected. Well, I mean, yeah. But it's funny because the more you learn about the founding father, not all of them, but in that earlier period, I mean, people think that it's politically charged now. It's like, ooh. Right. I mean, not for nothing.

[00:33:47] The second president of the United States violates the First Amendment by helping pass a law saying that it's a crime to say bad things about the president, among other things. Which is, you know, Trump could use that now. He can't say anything bad about me. But, you know, but yeah, every, you know, it's awful when you think about that because you think of the founding fathers as without sin. But they were just as bad.

[00:34:15] It's just, you know, we hold them in such high esteem. And because they did such a good job in forming the country. Well, I mean, not for nothing, what, 250 some odd years later. I mean, the institutions largely are still standing. Yeah. Against a couple of many wars, including two world wars, a couple of political, worse than a political scandal, a couple of insurrections, the White House being on fire, you know.

[00:34:44] And it's still there. It is amazing. And that's the credit they deserve for putting something together that stood the test of time. And while we get aggravated, some of those things built into the system, perhaps not you as much because you want stagnation. I mean, yeah. Well, I wouldn't say stagnation. I just like the gridlock because to me it seems like if something's a really good idea, it will probably have broad appeal. You would hope. You would hope.

[00:35:14] Yeah, knock on wood. But then again, we still don't have privatized Social Security. Well, and that's, you know, that's one idea. But even the, what is it? The SAVE Act. Is it the SAVE Act that has like 80, 85? Is that the one that has 85%? One of them has 85% support. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. The people think it's a good idea, but we can't get both parties to think it's a good idea.

[00:35:41] Well, and to be fair, the people don't know what the bill says in its entirety, which I also think is kind of an undue or an unfair critique that a lot of politicians deal with. It's like, well, why did you vote against this? It's like because there was a provision in there that nobody would have liked. And, yeah. Right. Well, and that's, you prefer that every issue is just straight up and down. You know, it's kind of like, you know, what am I having for dinner? Well, I'll choose this. Wait a minute.

[00:36:09] We threw something else in there with it. I know you wanted the steak, but now we're also making you eat grits with your steak. Well, I didn't want grits. You have no choice. Yep. And the law mandates that you have to eat the grits. You can't set them to the side. Right. Yeah.

[00:36:26] So I do think some of those bills are very complicated and it makes it difficult for, you know, some people vote for things that they wouldn't have normally, you know, and obviously the public, we support things because we only hear part of it. Or we don't, you know, there's a now a movement about, well, they're calling it amnesty, but at the same time, I think it's Representative Luna out of Florida. And it's saying it's not amnesty.

[00:36:56] It's a path to citizenship that she's trying to put forward. And I guess there's about 10 Republicans that are with her on it. And it's like, but it would create amnesty. It's just you're not calling it that. And I think sometimes people, you know, they go, yeah, I like the idea that there's a path, but I don't like the idea that you're not deporting people any longer. It would start, it would stop deportations. It's like, well, this bill seems.

[00:37:25] Yeah, it all depends on, it depends on the mechanism and what the end result will be. I mean, that's, that's with anything for sure. But yeah, I mean, optically, it depends on how you spin it, I guess. Right. And sometimes it becomes kind of complicated because you have four or five provisions in there rather than, you know, if you wanted to do amnesty, okay, then put a bill in that says that. Right. But it's balanced with five other things.

[00:37:52] You're like, well, I like that one part, but not the four other ones. So it's difficult. Yep. And it was going on back then too, everybody. A lot of the problems that are quote unquote new problems are going back to the very beginning and then some. Right. And I think, you know, you had the same, you know, battles with parties.

[00:38:15] You know, everybody likes to now talk about how George Washington said in his farewell address to not have political parties, which is now we hold that up and go, what a great idea. Except would it be? I mean, who wants one party? That doesn't sound like a good idea either. What's he talking about? And, you know, Jefferson and Adams were on different sides politically. You know, they had different ideas.

[00:38:41] Well, in coalition building, I mean, it seems to me is kind of just like a natural step in a democratic process. Like, I mean, you put 100 people in a room. Eventually, they're going to congregate in the groups of things that they have in common, whether they be interests, background, anything. It's going to happen naturally. So it was kind of a I get what Washington was saying. But at the same time, to your point, it's kind of like, yeah, but this is sort of an inevitability. I mean, it was already happening. Right. Right.

[00:39:11] Yeah. And I, you know, and I do think, yeah, you used to have much more of that coalition building in the past. And that was was great. But, you know, the problem is now I think the parties are so split and the the way of winning in your party in the primary for the Democrats. It's the far left for the Republicans.

[00:39:35] I would say now it's the MAGA Trump used to be the hard right, you know, very conservative. Sort of. I'm not sure those are the same anymore with Trump. Well, no. And we're and we're and we're I we're seeing a split that I kind of I'm kind of proud because I kind of sort of saw it coming. You're seeing a split in the Republican Party now.

[00:39:57] And I think honestly, I think once Trump is out, I think you're going to see an even further divide because Trump's not there to kind of hold the center anymore. Or Trump won't be there to kind of hold the center anymore between the the what I would say even two years ago was sort of the more to the masses, the more unpalatable far right, the more extreme elements of that. And then you're sort of rank and file Republicans who have sort of molded into that MAGA movement.

[00:40:27] And they're starting to split because Trump has found that politics are more complicated than he initially thought. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we all find that out eventually. Yeah. But but the but the but the more extreme right is, you know, now they're, you know, they're giving Trump grief for, you know, and whether you agree with it or not.

[00:40:48] I mean, this happened, you know, Trump sort of cozying up more to Israel and a myriad of other things being the no new wars president. And now there's military action in Iran and Venezuela, you know, joking about. Well, I'm not joking, but saying that, you know, your military force isn't off the table to take Greenland and Canada is going to be the 51st state, which I'm glad that was a joke, because if the Republicans never wanted to win again, making Canada a state would be a fantastic way to do so.

[00:41:18] At least for 50 some odd years. Right. No, I agree with that. That that would have been a great idea. And, you know, some of those ideas he throws out are new to politics in a way, because at least the Republican Party, you just didn't have that. No. And I'd say even to the Democratic, he's just someone on his own.

[00:41:40] There's to a point. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's it's funny because people forget this. But if you go back to 2015, 2016, Donald Trump was a joke. Yeah. Even mainstream Republicans were like this guy. Like, come on. And I mean, I said I was like, you're not you should really be paying attention to the people on the street and how they're taking him. Because it's resonating.

[00:42:06] That's what what it is. He he found a way to get to those people who were upset, maybe with both sides, but certainly within the Republican Party. You know, and maybe it was too much Bush. I don't know. We had a lot of the Bush family.

[00:42:23] And, you know, all of a sudden, Jeb, who you thought would be the candidate when that started, was out of the running pretty quickly and almost a joke with Trump just berating him on stage and calling him low energy Jeb. And, you know, it's like, you know, I don't know if that was the first name calling he did, but it is he's a phenomenon. It'll be interesting going forward. What happens?

[00:42:50] You know, you have on paper, you would think the Republicans have a lot of people that could win an election, but they don't have what Trump has. And I'm not even sure how you categorize what Trump has. There's I drive people crazy, but he also engages them to to get out and vote and to be with them.

[00:43:12] Well, I've said, ironically, Trump may may end up being one of the more unifying presence, presidents of the modern age, not in the way he wanted to. But because now there's people on both sides of the aisle that are really, really upset with Donald Trump. And it's weird because the political horseshoe theory has now become manifest in a way because you have elements of the far right and the far left saying the exact same things, but for completely different reasons.

[00:43:41] And it's fascinating to watch. Well, and I think one of the things the war stuff is is difficult, although, you know, when you you sit there and go, OK, it's not a normal war either. No, it's neither was, you know, Venezuela. I wouldn't call Venezuela a war. No, no, no, no. Just like a military slash more of an international police action, but use of the military.

[00:44:04] So, but yeah, and and got away with it. And yeah, and now you don't hear much about that, which is kind of a change. Well, to be fair, I think I think they're still waiting for Maduro's trial to start. Yeah, he he made a few motions to try, you know, it didn't work. And, you know, I it's always interesting because, you know, you put the vice president in charge in Venezuela.

[00:44:31] You have to think she was in on it. Like, how did first for sure? That's that's kind of why I it's it's a mild criticism. But I said this about the Trump administration at the time. I was like, but but what's what's phase two here? Because you can't be so naive as to think that like Maduro was the only thing holding that government together. Not even they're all they all have their hand in the pot. And once he's gone, they're just going to continue business as usual.

[00:44:58] Now, I'd say the one mild difference is, well, there's some incentive to play ball with the Trump administration, because if you don't, you you might be next on on a helicopter at three o'clock in the morning. But I mean, you're you're not you're not going to get like a brand new government. And they're certainly not going to agree to free and fair elections like that's just not going to happen. Right. And that's you know, and I think that's the problem you face in Iran also.

[00:45:28] It's like, OK, you've knocked out 50 or whatever it is of their leaders. And OK, now what? Like who we don't even know who's in charge. Is it the head of the parliament who you see on TV? Is it the the military? Because you get back and forth, different things are being said or happen. You know, events like you just saw again. The Strait of Hormuz was, you know, again, closed.

[00:45:58] Who did that? I thought you agreed. Well, no, it's the Revolutionary Guard. Well, that's a problem. Aren't they the military, though? I mean, I know it's not that cut and dry, but like on the surface, you would think. But aren't they the military? Right. And they're kind of the military that's left, I think. You know, I know. Probably. Probably. But what do you do if you're let's say you've won? You know, Trump says, well, we got rid of the Navy. We got rid of it. OK, we got rid of the Navy.

[00:46:27] Who's shooting at these? Well, we've also it's that's also happened before. I mean, in regards to the Iranian Navy. I mean, this is this is unfortunately this is a road we've been down before. Yeah. And, you know, what do you do unless you're willing to take out all the leadership and put people in? And that requires ground troops. And I know a lot of military people said that when this started, you know, like, oh, no, he's got another plan. But what is if he does? What's the plan?

[00:46:57] Because I don't know how you change anything there. They they'll agree to things and then they disagree. I think they were maybe hoping that the the people would rise up. I think maybe that's what they were hoping for. But again, it's just not that simple. Like there's certainly. I would say a fairly significant population of just the average Iranian people that would be in favor of a new government.

[00:47:23] But how many of them are willing to, you know, take that risk? Because it's not it's it's not as easy as opening the door and saying you're out like there's there's fighting that's going to have to be done. Well, right. And what weapons do they have to fight the Revolutionary Guard? Exactly. Exactly. And it's it's interesting that we went to Iran organically, because one of the questions I have is that, you know, historical narrative, historical narratives need to be challenged.

[00:47:50] And because I recently, like within the last week, another narrative that I had heard all my life growing up was that, you know, the United States to the CIA had deposed a democratically elected leader in Iran and installed the Shah. And it turns out that's not even close to being accurate. The Shah was already in power. Yeah.

[00:48:12] And you had a prime minister who illegally dissolved the Iranian parliament and was refusing after the Shah had constitutional authority to dismiss a prime minister. He was appointed and dismissed. But he said, no, I'm not leaving.

[00:48:28] And it's like, no, but the narrative, the narrative that in recent history, the narrative of the left has been, well, yeah, but the only reason Iran is where it is, is because we went in and, you know, deposed a democratic government and installed a king. And it's like, but that's not what happened. Right. But that's what we've been told. You're, you're absolutely right.

[00:48:50] And it's kind of interesting, you know, when this first broke out, it was the son of the Shah who was on TV talking, you know, as if he was going back. And I'm thinking, does that work? Oh, I saw, I saw him and I said, I don't think that's a good idea. Yeah. I don't, I don't know that I'd be that brave if I were you, but I mean. Yeah. You better go back with like an army. This isn't, you know. Don't think the CIA is going to, although maybe the CIA will back him this time. I don't know. But that seemed brave.

[00:49:21] Yeah. I mean, if you could go back with an army, I guess you could, you could somehow get people to rise up. Yeah. But then, but then in another 50 years, though, there would be another religious revolution because absolute power corrupts. Absolutely. And when you're told, hey, you're the king of a country and you can do whatever you want, basically. I mean. Right. Just most people are going to. I think the problem. And that, that is part of the problem.

[00:49:46] When he was on television, he was talking about, you know, helping, but he never said he wanted to be the shog. This is true. And I thought, well, yeah, if you stick to that, maybe. But yeah. If you say you're going to run, if you say you're going to run for the office of the president, that's one thing. Right. I mean, you, you really have to stick to that. And frankly, this sounds bad, but it's true. I mean, you're talking about another region of the world that is just not used to having.

[00:50:17] They're not used to having a democratic government. No. And that takes time. For a while. You know, a lot of people say you just can't bring democracy to that area because they've never done that. And, you know, like we, I guess, you know, we've had our former government, as you mentioned, the 250 years, which is, that's all we've known. Right. You know, people who have come from other countries, sure, they may have known some other system, but, and maybe that's why they left that system.

[00:50:48] But for those of us that are born here that, you know, and now we're 250 years in, you know, that's all we've known. We don't, we can't say, boy, having a monarchy would be great. And if we did say it. Some people say that. Yeah. But we'd say it like, if I could be king. Well, no, some people would. I think, I think an alarming, not enough to make it happen politically, but I think there are an alarming number of people that would be okay with King Donald Trump. Wow.

[00:51:18] You know, I don't, that's an interesting point because it's often said. Not, not enough to make it happen, but I think there, I think it's the numbers bigger than a lot of people would be comfortable with. You think this goes beyond like, uh, the Trump family and their. Yeah. No. Well, because here's, here's the thing that Trump did. And it, on the one hand, it was really, really good. I have, I have personal anecdotes, but there's also data. He made a lot of people in 2016.

[00:51:46] He made a lot of people that were not political before political and the double-edged sword of that is okay. Great. They went out and voted and some of them learned some stuff, but the research stopped there. The learning stopped there. So there's, there's a lot of people that I, I believe. And I think the data shows this again, not a, not a significant enough number to make anything really happen. But I think there's a large number of people that are just kind of on the Trump train and whatever Trump says or does is a okay by them.

[00:52:16] And if he wanted to put a crown on his head, I think they'd be totally okay with it because you'd hear arguments of like, well, yeah, the government's gridlocked and, you know, nothing gets done anyway. So it would be a lot more expedient. And I mean, I guess to a point that's true, but what are the expedient things that are going to be done? Well, and, and part of the problem, I mean, I'd be against that, but I would, I would too, but not because it's Trump. I'd be against that because I don't want a King period. Right.

[00:52:44] Well, I'd say unless it's me. Right. You, yeah, that's right. Like I can be trusted, but what happens after me? That's, that's the age old problem of a monarchy. Right. Cause the first King is always great. Right. The first King is always fantastic. And the second one might be okay. But by the time you get to the third or fourth, it's just a shit show. Right. Especially when you're passing it family. Yeah. Yeah. When it's hereditary, I mean, look no further than the Habsburgs. Right.

[00:53:11] So it happens where people, you know, may get a good first King, but then it goes downhill. I think we're ingrained in this system. Although I think I tend to agree with you. There are people that would accept the King because, and maybe Trump isn't the first one where that would happen. And some of these supporters, we've seen it with executive orders. And it's not only at the federal level, at the state level where governors do it too. And everybody just says, okay, what do you mean?

[00:53:40] Well, no, there, there, there would have been, there would have been at least a handful of people that would have been okay with a King Barack Obama, for example. Like there, there, there are people to this day that are still just on that Obama train for whatever reason. It's just like, whatever Obama said was gospel and it cannot be argued against. Yeah. And every once in a while he comes out and says something as if it's some great proclamation from up above. And you're like, you didn't say anything. Right.

[00:54:10] Right. But the people that are following him in their minds are like, it's music to their ears. Right. It's like, that is so deep. I wish he was still in office. Well, he served two terms. Yeah. He doesn't get another one. Yeah. I mean, you know, there's a mechanism to change that, but it's very difficult. And if you want to try and make that happen, hats off to you, but I don't think it's going to happen. No, I think there's other things I'd rather have happen than that.

[00:54:37] I think two terms, but at the end of the two terms were pretty much sick of what was ever in there. Well, I personally, after two terms, I think the president's sick of it. Cause I mean, I always, I don't enjoy it, but it's fascinating. If you look at, you know, like I think Obama may have been the more pronounced one just cause you could see, cause he was so young when he was elected and he served the full two terms is you see his first inauguration and then you see Trump's inauguration.

[00:55:05] And the difference is just so unbelievable. Like it's, you can see it on his face. Like they, somebody who serves, it's only eight years, but they age, like they age 20 years. You're right. It's very rare to see a president in that age. And it's never good. It's not like, well, you look better eight years later. Yeah. I don't, I don't know that's ever happened. In fact, one of my favorite, my favorite bits Saturday night live ever did.

[00:55:35] It was when, uh, it was actually after Obama won. Oh no, I'm sorry. Not Obama. It was when Clinton, it was very, very early. I think it was when W won. It's got a Daryl Hannah who does the best Clinton impression to this day, packing up a suitcase in the overall office. And he's literally just like, he wants this job. He can have it. You know? Well, yeah. I mean, it is the toughest job. I think. Oh, it's not a job I would want.

[00:56:02] It's, it's, you know, and a lot of times you're going to be stuck with things that happen all over the world that you're not responsible for, but you didn't respond to it or you responded in a way people don't like, and they may like it when you first do it. You saw, uh, HW Bush when they first, uh, in the middle East, it was like 91% are in favor. Yes. But by the end, you know, you might be 91% against you.

[00:56:31] It may have cost your election. Yeah. Well, I always, yeah. I always point out that I, I didn't know too many people and granted I was young at the time, but I mean, I was old enough to at least see what was going on after 9-11, when they were mobilizing into Afghanistan, I didn't see too many people against that. But then 20 years later, everybody was in favor of pulling out and it's like, well, but you know, we're still in Iraq, right? Like we're still there to this day.

[00:57:00] We're still there. Yeah. That was only, that was only two, three years later. Which is amazing. Right. Cause you, you talk about, it's easy to like second guess five, 10 years down the road. I wouldn't have done that or I was against it. But, but when you have votes in the Senate and Congress and, you know, Hillary Clinton. I was just going to bring up Hillary Clinton. Yeah. Now she, she had a few of those.

[00:57:29] I don't know if she's as big a flip flopper as others, but. Well, I don't know. She, she has what might be my favorite flip flop moment. Cause I saw her doing this and I was just like, wow, that's, that's a whole new level of gaslighting there when she was, I forget what day it was, but like on Monday. Yeah. Yeah. She was saying that she was going to kill the coal industry. And then on Tuesday, she's in Pennsylvania talking to coal miners saying, we're going to save your jobs. And it's like, it was a day before.

[00:57:58] It's like, they forget that television is a thing. And right. Yeah. They think they're campaigning in 1948. Nobody's going to see this. So what they do, it's going to be in some history book years later. But I mean, it's, it's, it's just, it's astonishing to watch because when she's challenged on it, she was like, oh no, if you, you know, that's, that's not what I was saying. It's like, no. Oh, okay. Um. The tape doesn't lie.

[00:58:27] I, I, I think maybe we have different ideas of how the English language works, but you know, it seemed pretty clear that that's what you were saying. Oh yeah. I think that's, well, that's the problem she had. It's why Donald Trump beat her. She wasn't genuine. I mean, I made the joke that it's like, wow, the Democrats found the one person people hated more than Donald Trump. I mean, that's, that's incredible.

[00:58:56] You know what, what's interesting about that as bad as I think Joe Biden was his president. They stepped over him and you think you had, I mean, Obama, whether you like him or not, two terms. So he was somewhat popular and his vice president gets passed over. It doesn't make sense. I have a, I have a theory about that. Honestly, I really do have a theory because you're right. It makes no sense. And in fact, at that time, I think Biden might've beaten Trump in 2016.

[00:59:26] I think you're right. I, the reason my, there's a tinfoil hat territory, but buckle up. Cause I think I'm right on this. I hope I'm not, but I think I am right. So after, after the incident in Benghazi, I think the Democrat leadership of the party came and said, look, we need a scapegoat. Cause this makes the president look really bad. If it's his fault, which it was his fault.

[00:59:52] I think they went to Hillary and said, Hey, listen, take the fall. You've, you've got the political wherewithal. You've got the name. Bill can help you weather the storm. And when it's all over, you're going to get the nomination for president because also recall what happened between her and Bernie Sanders in 2016. Yeah. I mean, the emails have been released. Right. The, the, the democratic party was actively shadow banning for lack of a better term,

[01:00:22] Bernie Sanders, who was clearly, uh, I don't know that he was the favorite necessarily, but he was certainly popular and there were, there was a movement to really get him into that seat. And I'm just watching it. So I'm like, I, I think, I think an agreement was made to give Hillary the nomination. I, I do think there was an agreement and I think the, uh, I'm not sure if it's the Benghazi thing. That's an interesting theory. I think, uh, because you just sandaled her with something and she's going to run.

[01:00:52] Although, you know, she did all right. Yeah. Well, I mean, and make no mistake, Hillary Clinton was not unpopular. I just don't know that she was necessarily clean enough to win that kind of race. Right. And I think she became less popular. The more she spoke, the more people started to know about her. Well, kind of like same thing with Kamala Harris, the more she talked, the less people liked her. Right.

[01:01:19] Like, you know, Harris still says, you know, if she had more time, she could have won the election. It's like, no, you, you needed less time. You needed like one day. Well, I think the biggest thing, which to be fair, I don't think she would have won because I just, I just, I vehemently believe that Kamala Harris just is incapable of running a campaign. But I think what really did her in was the fact that they didn't have Biden step aside sooner because even when he did, everybody knew it wasn't him.

[01:01:47] It was the party saying, okay, nope, you're out. You had one, you had one brain failing episode too many. Uh, the last one was on national, on live television during a debate. I, I think he should have gone out much earlier and said, Hey, listen, I'm, I, how old was he then? 82, 84. I don't remember. I think he should have. Yeah. I think he was 82. And it's like, listen, I'm 82 years old. I'm, I don't want to do this.

[01:02:13] Well, and I think that he, when you talk about the deal, I think the deal was, you know, the Democrats had the first black. They were going to have the first woman Hillary. Oh, probably. We'll work it out later down the road. And for him, he had been vice president. He had lost her in the primaries for president a couple of times already. He wasn't considered a great candidate.

[01:02:40] And, you know, yeah, I think once he got the, the 2020 run, um, he was like, okay, I'll do, he said one term. That's true. Yeah. And I pointed that out at the time I was talking about, I'd say, he said one term, like, yeah, you guys had it. I mean, you guys really had it, you know, but it becomes, you know, almost like the king. Like I, I know I said that, but I'm in charge. So I'm not getting out of here. Listen, things change.

[01:03:10] It's like, no, you could have pulled a poke. You could have said, Hey, I'm going to one term it. And you could, I did the thing and now it's done. Right. And everybody would look at it like, okay, that's, you kept your promise. That was probably the most important thing. Plus the fact it wasn't going well. There's that too. There is that too. Right. It's good for your party. I'm sure in his mind though, you know, let's face it. They, they worked over Bernie in 2016.

[01:03:39] They made some kind of deal in 2020 where everybody got on board with Biden when it got to South Carolina. And I think in the end, Biden adopted all the policies that Bernie wanted anyhow. So it was, he was almost like a shadow president. It became certainly to a point. I don't, I don't know that any of Bernie's more radical policies, whatever just made, which I ultimately think that's why Bernie didn't win is because he was too radical for a mainstream, a mainstream election.

[01:04:07] But I mean, we'll, we'll never know. Right. Cause he's not, he's not going to run for president again. Oh, well I say that. Never say never. They might wheel him out, you know, and cause clearly we haven't learned our lesson. Right. Well people, and we keep electing guys that are older each time. So, you know, I think he did say something. He would be 80, 86. I feel like, yeah, I feel like he did say something.

[01:04:34] Although one of my favorite, uh, Ronald Reagan moments was, um, he's in the debate. And up to that point, they'd been, you know, raising concerns that, you know, Reagan's, Reagan's kind of old and it had come up and he takes a moment and he says something to the effect of like, I promise not to make age an issue of this campaign. I promise not to, for political purposes, point out my opponent's youth and inexperience. Yes. That was a, that was like an awesome, uh, it was so great.

[01:05:03] And even, I think Mondale at the time was running against him. He chuckled. Oh, he was laughing. Like, cause it was funny. Like, right. And it, you know, now I think you wouldn't necessarily see that chuckle. The guy would probably. Yeah. Yeah. I do. I will say I do miss, I do miss the more. Cause like even Kerry pointing out that, you know, it was Obama's anniversary the night of their debate. And he was like, I'm, you know, I'm sure you're thrilled to be here with me. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:05:32] I, and I do think sometimes there's good statements. Uh, Lloyd Benson with, uh, Quayle and Quayle compared himself to John F. Kennedy, you know, Benson went out about how he knew Kennedy. Kennedy was a friend. Yeah. You're no John F. Kennedy. And it's like, oh, why? Which gets to the point of people who compare themselves to anyone, it gets a little tough. And, you know, even in the book, when I'm comparing Trump, I've had a few people tell me,

[01:05:58] you know, you can't compare, you know, anybody, you know, like, and they're anti-Trump, honestly. It's like, okay. You know, that doesn't mean every single thing they did is alike. There's just similarities and that's it. You can't, you know, I would say don't compare yourself to Jesus. You know, that's kind of a, a given and don't compare your enemies to Hitler. That's also a kind of a given. Those are. Yeah. And that's generally, Hey, listen.

[01:06:27] They're on the far points of, you know. Unless they come out with a swastika. Yeah. I'd say it started, you know, telling you what they're going to do. Like we're going to, we think the Jews are the problem. We're going to exterminate them. Okay. We got a problem here. Okay. Okay. Now, now we're getting nearly close. Okay. Yeah. Now you can call the guy Hitler. Yeah. Now, now, now we're knocking on the door. We're, we're getting there. Now all we need is a pencil mustache and a bad haircut.

[01:06:56] And you're, you're, you're, you're right there. Right. I need a, I need a pretty big hill. Same thing. If you want to be Jesus, you're going to have to heal somebody. Right. There's going to have to be a miracle. And then I'm going to, yeah. It's probably going to be multiple miracles. Yeah. God, this is fascinating. So are there, are there any other, what, what would you call them? Like political witch hunts that people may not be aware of that historically obviously happened, but that are fascinating. Yeah.

[01:07:24] I think most people are aware of them. Like, you know, when they talk about McCarthyism and, you know, that's a big one. Um, you know, it's kind of funny the, you know, I don't know if you've seen the story with, uh, Bill Murray being interviewed. Um, I think it was on, uh, Bill Maher's podcast. Uh, and he, he was talking about the book that, uh, Woodward, uh, read, uh, wrote about, uh, John Belushi and Saturday Night Live.

[01:07:54] And, you know, Bill Murray said he got about four or five pages into it and stopped and threw it away. And he said, you know, the things he goes, and what I said was, oh my God. They framed Nixon because he said everything they were writing in the book. He knew was false about Belushi's. And I knew this guy, I was friends with him. I worked with him. He goes, imagine if they could do that to him, what did they do to, to Nixon?

[01:08:24] Well, and I, yeah, I always said the only difference between Nixon and every other president was that Nixon got caught, but maybe he, maybe he got framed. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. The Bill Murray theory. Yes. I don't, you know, and I, you know, who knows what's true about Belushi, you know, the Nixon one. Now, when you look at things that have happened, you go, well, is that any worse than some of the things we've seen? No. You know, with the use of FISA and, you know, buying on Americans and like, I don't know.

[01:08:53] Well, and I mean, and like, really, I'm not trying to sugarcoat it, but it's like the idea of a campaign spying on another campaign. I mean, is that really all that far-fetched? And is it, is it really, and is it really worse than pun intended trumping up charges to try to get somebody to be ineligible to run? And for that matter, trying to get people to, to play evenly politically, to try to get people

[01:09:21] to believe that someone's birth certificate is invalid? Like, are these really that different? Right. I mean, there's always been dirty tricks. Exactly. Yeah. It's just in that case, you know, the coverup, it's always the coverup, right? It's, you know, when you're caught, maybe it's better just to go, well, all right, we, these guys are caught. They're going to have to deal with it. You know, and now that we use the pardon system the way we do. Right. Just fine.

[01:09:50] We're going to pardon them anyhow. I mean, one, one might say Ford began just a wonderful tradition that day. Yeah. It's, it becomes that. And I remember back then people being so upset and you think about it, like Ford, you know, honestly said, Hey, uh, I thought it would do such severe damage to the country. If this, if we were trying a president or former president, it doesn't, it doesn't help.

[01:10:20] And he may have been right. I'm not going to say he was wrong. Right. He may have been right. I genuinely think he believed that. Yeah. Others would say, well, there was a deal. What deal? He was going to become president. Right. Yeah. He didn't need that. Which speaking of Ford, I always like to point this out. How, like, wow. I remember I brought this up when people were like, certain people online were getting mad about them making fun of Biden falling all the time.

[01:10:44] And I'm like, well, Hey, I mean, Ford, to be fair, Ford slipped on one step and it became a gag for, I mean, depending on how many, how many sitcoms you watch. I mean, it became a gag for, they, they reference it in that 70 show, a show made 20 years, over 20 years later. And they still make that gag. And then Chevy Chase just had a field day with it. Oh yeah. And it's, it's like, he fell one time. Right. Yeah.

[01:11:12] They made him to be this complete klutz. And the funny part about it is he was an athlete. I know. I mean, he was, he might've been, well, he was one of the more athletic presidents. Yeah. You know, unfortunately you fall. I mean, Trump talks about that. Boy, if I slip, they're going to say something. Yes. They will. To be fair, Mr. Trump. I mean, you, you made a fair amount of statements in regards to someone else slipping. Now, granted, they, they did slip fairly often.

[01:11:42] But I mean. Right. Yeah. You're going to, if you start throwing darts, you're probably going to have darts thrown at you. So be aware. Well, but I guess the best kind of anecdote I I've ever heard about Trump and how he wins politically is that Trump is a mud monster, you know? So, so he's already, he's already mud. So if you throw mud at him, what, what are you going to do? Like he's, he's, he's already composed of it. Yeah.

[01:12:11] I will say, you know, he is, um, it doesn't matter. Nothing sticks to this guy. Right. I mean, you know, they used to say it about, uh, John Gotti. Yeah. You know, nothing could stick to him. Of course he was fixing his trials. That's why it didn't fix to him. You know, that stuff. Sure. It doesn't stick when you fix the jury. But yeah, with Trump, I just think his, his support is so locked in that people don't come off based on that.

[01:12:39] They might come off on wars or the economy or something. Which I think, I think the economy was the first and then the, the wars second, which I say wars broadly, but the military actions. But also I think Trump benefited immensely because his, his political enemies were just so inept. But I mean, I mean, like I, I said this multiple times while it was going on.

[01:13:05] It's like, listen, if you want to indict Donald Trump, there are way, there are things you can do to do it. But what you guys are choosing to run with makes me think you actually don't want to win. Yeah. I, it was kind of funny, you know, cause that's one of the things in the book and we break down the, you know, each case against Trump and why it was doomed from the start. And what happened with these things. And, you know, even when you get a conviction, it's like, yeah, nobody believes that this

[01:13:34] is a real case. I said that about the New York case. I was like, I don't buy for it because I mean, first of all, there's no victim. Second of all, the banks got their money back. So, and like, okay, the banks could have always done an appraisal. Well, and they, and the bank, uh, the Deutsche Bank vice president said, we don't follow what he gives us. We do our own analysis and we, that had nothing to do. We didn't rely on it. Well, if you don't rely on it, you know. Then it, then it's a moot point.

[01:14:04] The biggest one, the biggest one I thought may stick was the Georgia case. That is until, uh, it turns out the prosecutor hired a, depending on who you ask an ex or current boyfriend. Uh, and then I was like, oh, come on. Like a great fiction writer could not come up with this. Yeah. That was kind of a big break for Trump. And, uh, yeah, because they basically copied the federal case and made it a state charge

[01:14:32] and, and they had a County where it probably was going to get a good hearing. Um, even though I think the judge was a Republican, but he seemed willing to let things play out, which that was the sense that I got. Yeah. Yeah. And so, but it is interesting that you, you went to so much trouble to get Trump legally. And in the end, it probably helped them. I mean, it put them.

[01:15:02] I'd certainly think it's funny. I remember, cause I said there was another podcast we do that's more political. And I said this at the time when they released his mugshot, I said, you guys just wrote his campaign for the next three months. Yeah. And I think you saw it, and I think you saw it, especially in the, uh, in the black community with the, with young men, but men of all sorts who felt he might've been treated poorly and could relate to it, felt that, Hey, I've been treated poorly too.

[01:15:32] And, you know, especially men of all sorts, but black men seem to have this idea. So, and I think just anybody watching it thought, wow, four cases is kind of overkill. Yeah. This seems, and, and, and all but one seemed quite dubious. And even the one that seemed quasi legitimate, it's like, well, okay, but I, I'd want to see the evidence of this because you're making some pretty strong claims and I haven't seen what you're going off of yet.

[01:16:00] And frankly, the testimony of one or two poll workers is not enough to convince me that, you know, anything I need phone records. I need, I need substantive data. But anyway, that trial ended up not going anywhere because once, once the, uh, conflict of interest arose, it was kind of like, well, this is kind of a done deal. Yeah, I think you're right. Yep. Hey, so let's talk about that amazing idea you've got.

[01:16:29] You know, the one that's always in the back of your mind. Well, it absolutely deserves to be heard. Today, we're going to look at a network that's built to do just that, to amplify your voice and make that idea a reality. Seriously, think about it for a second. What's that one thing you're passionate about? That one story that only you can tell? We all have that topic we could just talk about for hours on end, right? But there's a catch. That's the big question, isn't it? It's the hurdle that stops so many fantastic ideas cold.

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[01:18:24] Are you ready to take that step and finally share your voice? And here's how you do it. The whole path from idea to launch is laid out for you right there. It's not just about podcasts. It's about the stories and the knowledge and the passion inside all of us. So what's yours? So to kind of pivot from history a bit, like you said, you've had experience working in or around education. You've been a member of a school board.

[01:18:54] Do you find, generally speaking, at least in terms of what you've seen, do you think history as a subject is treated as or viewed as unimportant in our current education system? Yeah, I think it is. Because I think, you know, and when you go back to years ago, what was the emphasis? It was always arithmetic, reading, writing, arithmetic, and all they called it. And it's like, okay, yeah, those are important.

[01:19:22] But history, you know, we go through that so quickly and we never really get to the end. So they kind of summarize things, you know, for us, you know, World War II, you got to. Yeah. With American history. You didn't get past that. You know, everything else you had to kind of look up on your own. No, well, no, funnily enough. I mean, we're still dealing with border disputes that were the result of the end of the Second World War. Namely, yeah, namely Israel.

[01:19:49] But, you know, there are other areas in the world that we're dealing with that. I mean, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, for one. Yeah. And I think most people have no idea what's going on. Because you just don't get deeply into it. And I don't know. There's so much history. You can make the argument it's impossible. It certainly is.

[01:20:16] But I've always viewed, and I kind of tell people this, you know, because a lot of people think history is boring. And it's like, well, when you think about it as memorizing, like, certain names and certain dates, yeah, it's really boring. But if you look at, you know, okay, this event happened. What happened after that as a result of it? And what can you draw from? So, like, you know, World War I and World War II in an academic sense are treated as very separate events. They're not.

[01:20:43] One is a direct result of the fallout of the other. It's like they're connected. I get out my, you know, corkboard and I'm like, you can actually make the case that it's one continuous war that had a break in the middle. Like, if you really stretch it, you can make the argument. Kind of an intermission? Yeah, basically. Basically. Yeah, it's kind of a, it's one war with a brief period of relative peace and an economic disaster in the middle.

[01:21:13] Yeah. I mean, I could see that. But, I mean, you got to be real loose with it, but I mean, you can. Right. But one does, or the results of one can cause the next one. You know, at least that much I think is true. You know, the, how you settle the first one may lead to discontent and burn, you know, the ashes then end up becoming a real fire in the area. Oh, 100%. Unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:21:44] Yeah. They seem to understand that at the end of the second world. Cause I don't know. Have you seen the, the newer movie Nuremberg that came out like late last year? Yes. I love the, uh, the speech that Justice Jackson gives when they're in the, uh, the old arena and he's trying to convince, uh, Dr. Kelly to basically spy on Göring for him. And he explains that, you know, this, there needs to be a trial so that we make sure this never happens again. Cause yeah, it's super easy to just take them out back and shoot them, but now they're martyrs.

[01:22:14] Yeah. Right. Which is kind of the same thing. You know, that's a war, but it's the same way with Donald Trump's election. You made him into sort of a martyr. They absolutely did. Anything that people couldn't see happening. You made people feel sorry for Donald Trump. Something you never thought would have been possible. No. And it's those people in the middle. I think his supporters were always on board. They were there. The people that were wearing the MAGA hats were always going to be there, but there were

[01:22:42] people who like me were in the middle and it's kind of like, listen, I don't, I don't love the guy, but this seems one-sided. Yeah. And that's what it became. And I think some people then would given the choice between Kamala and Trump and everything comes down to choices. I had someone tell me, you know, they voted for Trump because it's, it's a choice. I had two choices. I didn't have six and he was the better choice. Okay.

[01:23:11] And I see that thinking. They were not a strong MAGA person. They weren't even moved really by the, the cases. It was just when it came down to it, do I pick A or B? Well, I, I really think B's not up to the job. So I'm picking A, even though I'm not a hundred percent with them. Well, and B was, you know, option B was thrown in at effectively the last minute. There was one debate that was like pulling teeth to get.

[01:23:39] And then meanwhile, you got the other guy who at least, you know, again, mud monster, but at least I can see the mud. Mud monster. To pull from a previous metaphor. Yes. Okay. So like, again, we mentioned your book, DC Swamp Strikes Back. So what, what else can people expect when they, when they pick up your book, which I highly recommend you do. And I will be doing so you can purchase it on Amazon or if there's anywhere else people can get it.

[01:24:08] Cause I know some people are anti Amazon for some reason, but yeah. Barnes and Noble has it. There's anywhere books are sold, you know, really, but, uh, that's yeah. I think what you see and what I've told other people with the book is like, sure. If you're a Trump supporter, you're definitely going to like it because you're, you're looking at it and going, Hey, um, I believe this stuff and I didn't remember it. Well, now you've got it all there in the book and you've got reasoning to back it up. You're also going to learn something.

[01:24:38] I think about Aaron Burr. So even if you're not a Trump supporter, you know, just an onlook or you want to, you're a history buff. You can see like Aaron Burr may have gotten a bad rap, so to speak. Uh, because he's kind of pushed into the, you know, trash can of history. And I was kind of guilty of that over the years thinking, well, Aaron Burr, even though, and we kind of discard vice presidents anyhow. Yeah. That's true. Yeah.

[01:25:06] You know, but to be vice president for Thomas Jefferson, it's, you know, it's early on in our days. You're, that's pretty solid. Yeah. Well, and I can say at least Hamilton, Hamilton at least gave Aaron Burr a bad rap. Yeah, I think so. I think historians have too, though. You know, it's like some of it I think is, you know, based on innuendo and, and maybe they're just reporting what they see. But when you look at the paperwork, which, you know, I reference all that and all the documents,

[01:25:36] you know, people can make up their own mind. I, I don't really judge whether he was guilty or not. It's, I just think there was no evidence. Maybe that's the attorney part. I've always believed if you don't have evidence, we can't convict people no matter. I'm inclined to agree because it's like, look, it's really easy to be accused of something, but you have to, again, you have to bring the evidence. Otherwise it's just somebody saying something happened. Right. Right. And too often we have that happen.

[01:26:03] And, you know, it's one thing careers are ruined. We certainly, that's bad enough that your career is ruined because, you know, someone said something. That's not enough. We need, we need hard evidence. And if we're going to convict someone, especially of treason, you know, punishable by death, I think we really want hard evidence. And the law requires that. So some of it, I don't spend a lot of time on that, but it lays out what the law is.

[01:26:32] So people understand that. Hopefully in a way people can read and understand it without going to law school. It's just, here's what you have to prove. Well, but that is important because again, if you look at that, you can look at several cases where it's like, they're guilty. It's like, well, yeah, but also what are the charges? Because, you know, I point this out with Trump too.

[01:26:53] It's like the difference between the RICO law in Georgia was it had one other additional sort of element to it that might have made it stick more than the federal level. Which is one of the reasons, A, it took place in Georgia, allegedly, but also, you know, they had the RICO charge that would have made it stick. So, you know, did they do something? Yes. Are they necessarily guilty? Like murder is a good example.

[01:27:20] Like, you know, you have murder one, two, and three, and a lot of people don't know those are different levels of criteria. And if you're charging with somebody with murder one, for example, but they don't meet the standard of evidence, they can not be convicted. Right. And you might get them for nothing because you had the wrong charge. You know, that often happens where they go with the higher charge. And it's like, well, if you would have gone with the lower one, you would have convicted. You might have gotten convicted, yeah.

[01:27:51] Yeah. And, you know, depending on how you write the indictment and so forth can affect whether you're going to convict a guy. So it's – but I do think, you know, even people that don't – well, if you don't like Trump, you probably detest Trump. I don't know if there's any middle ground with him. But it's not really – it's not a defense necessarily of Trump. It just shows you the parallels between him and Burr.

[01:28:18] And I think written as unbiased as anybody can write because, let's face it, we're all a little biased, you know, and there's not much we could do about that. But so you try, but it's backed up with any, you know, documentation. Yep, exactly. Well, and I will say this. I'm not – I'm certainly not a huge Donald Trump fan, although I did – it's complicated. I voted for him in 2024. It's complicated.

[01:28:47] But I'm not a fan. However, going all the way back to 2016, I've said it and I still say it now. I don't think from a media perspective Trump ever got a fair shot. Yeah. Yeah, and we – there's some in the book too about the media. I think you'd find interesting the media back then and what Burr faced. Yeah.

[01:29:08] Different, but it's a – there was a media, you know, it was news pamphlets and so forth and, you know, owned by, you know, people like Alexander Hamilton. Yeah. So, you know, he started the New York Post, still around, which is kind of amazing. Right. But, you know, he – so Burr had his own problems dealing with the media. Trump is kind of – he's had a lot of trouble with the media with the exception of, you know, conservative outlets. But even that –

[01:29:38] Yeah, I was going to say – Even they – even they will – their love knoweth bounds. Yeah. So I think, you know, it's interesting as a politician because Trump has kind of overcome a lot of that where others have been dismissed. You know, mentioned Dan Quayle earlier, but, you know, he was kind of scrap-heaped and never heard again after the media made him seem like a dunce. And –

[01:30:05] Well, and – but, I mean, to be – it's funny. A friend of mine said the other night we were doing another podcast and he just said – he's like, yeah, but if Adolf Hitler were around today, he'd just have a podcast. But, I mean, if Dan Quayle had had the media – the new media apparatus that we have today, you may have seen a very different Dan Quayle. But there were no options back then. Exactly. Yeah. And it's the same thing when you see here Trump and Burr.

[01:30:33] You know, Trump in his cases went right to the cameras and told people. He didn't wait for – sure, they were reporting on it, but it didn't matter if it was NBC, CBS, whoever, CNN. He's standing there. Now, you can either broadcast me or not, but it's getting out. Right. And then he'd be doing the, you know, on X and now Truth Social. So now he's really on both. And, you know, and God knows where else, right?

[01:31:02] I don't know if he can take those videos. But whatever, you know, this guy thought, okay, they're not going to report it the way I want. I'm going to report it for them. And, you know, I'm sure his attorneys weren't happy when he'd leave court and go out and talk to reporters. No, no. And I've said this in his defense back in when everybody thought he was a joke. I said, listen, this is going to sound dumb, but hear me out. Trump understands professional wrestling very well.

[01:31:32] Yes. He knows how to play a character on television and get the audience to feel the way he wants them to feel. And he's a master at it. The whole, we brought up the Canada 51st state. That was to get you, that was to get a certain select group of the audience pissed off so that he could then do other things while they were distracted by that. Right. He's a master at it.

[01:32:26] Yeah. That being a state's one of them, but that's the extreme measure. But, but again, it's because people don't understand the overarching truth of the narrative. They just, they just view it as a land grab. It's like, Hey, Trump, Trump's not going to invade Greenland. That would be way more trouble than it's worth. I think the problem is the media has made him out to be like a madman. So they think like Greenland probably did think he is going to invade us.

[01:32:55] Well, but that's, that's, that's one of the brilliant things about Trump. And I think he understands that is because there's enough doubt there because it goes back to when he was, you know, not negotiating with, but sort of dealing with, you know, certain elements in the Middle East or even Vladimir Putin in Russia. It's like, there's enough belief that he might be insane that in the back of your mind, you're like, he's not, he's not going to do it.

[01:33:23] But I mean, he might, he might do it. I think enough people believe that, that they just, you know, he's been around now since, well, he's been around forever because he was a personality. But, you know, politically, you know, certainly when he started running, even before that, we knew a lot about what he thought. Yeah. He would pop up places that say what he thought, you know, and then leave.

[01:33:52] It's like, okay, I don't know what you're doing. I don't, at that point, I didn't care. Like, who cares what Donald Trump in 2009 thought? Don't really care. No, not particularly. You know, it's kind of like any celebrity when they speak. I don't care. Well, but in 2009, remember, in 2009, he was welcome on The View. That's true. Right. Yeah. Not so much now. In the book, we talk about the media. We go through how he was treated now, you know, then and now.

[01:34:20] And, you know, and it really is more, I think, on the, those shows. Whether it's late night TV or the news or The View. You know, he was on Oprah. He was, he was everywhere because he was, you know, the millionaire playboy at the time. And now he's the billionaire president, supposedly. But I, I think it tells you that they really didn't like the fact he became a Republican and became. Oh, no. They don't like, they didn't like that one bit.

[01:34:49] I do think, however, I think it's going to be fascinating in 30 to 40 years how history views President Donald Trump. And I think it's going to be very different than how we view him today. Yeah. That'll be interesting. It'll be very interesting. Because stuff, stuff's obviously going to come out. Stuff's going to get declassified. Yeah. And we're, we're going to learn not the full picture because I don't think we'll ever truly know. Because truth be told, I don't think anybody actually really knows Donald Trump.

[01:35:20] Except for Donald Trump. But. Well, it's, it's a good point because when you sit there and you go, okay, like Iran, for instance, you know, this whole military action or whatever it's being called. You sit there and think, what are we doing? But I still hold back on judgment because it's not over. Or some people are declaring on social media, well, they were saying there was a deal when there was no deal. And here's the deal. And I'm like, who said that was the deal?

[01:35:51] Iran had said that was the deal. They're just mimicking propaganda from Iran. And you look at it and go, I kind of want to wait till the end. I mean, I have an idea of what a win is. But I don't know. I'm not sure what his full plan is. I don't think he's told. I know he hasn't told me. Well, he hasn't told me. And there's an element to that that makes you think, I don't even know if he knows what the plan is. Maybe not. Maybe not. I don't know. But often it's kind of like when you said Greenland, Canada.

[01:36:21] There were things that were said and done. But that's not the end plan. The Greenland one especially you saw what the end plan was eventually. This could all honestly be a game of 4D chess in which Trump is trying to cozy up relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia. Like we don't know. Right. We honestly don't know. We don't know. We could all guess. And the people that don't like him guess that he's selling out.

[01:36:47] That he's under the commands of BB Netanyahu. And, you know, the people that do like him. You know. Yeah. I will say this much about that whole thing is I think you can pretty definitively prove that it's the other way around. Because if we because I know I know that as as a collective in our country, we have the attention span of a gnat.

[01:37:07] But if you recall when the previous go around with Iran and Qatar specifically, Benjamin Netanyahu issued a public apology to the nation of Qatar for attacking their military bases. Do you really think that was Benjamin Netanyahu's idea? No. No. I don't. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:37:32] I mean, and I think, you know, to some extent, I'm sure Israel has brought forth ideas. Sure. I'm 100 percent sure. But I would agree. And I think even Netanyahu said, you know, anybody that knows Donald Trump knows that nobody controls him. I think that's that's true. I think that's true. Well, and again, Israel's in such a position geographically, politically, militarily. They are dependent on the United States.

[01:38:01] So I don't really buy the whole that Israel's pulling the strings from a back room. Like you said, do they have influence? Sure. But I mean, to an effect, every ally has influence to how much that. But but I think Israel doesn't Israel knows better as a nation than to play that game.

[01:38:23] Because if the United States pulls funding, then it's it's a much rougher existence, as rough as the existence is for the nation of Israel. It's a much rougher existence. Yeah. I think at some point they don't survive if the United States isn't supporting Israel. And especially, you know, we have this move here that's become very anti-Israel, mostly within the Democratic Party. But there's Republicans also.

[01:38:52] Well, that's what I'm talking about, the political horseshoe theory. And I was like, I never thought I'd see a day when you had elements of the Republican Party becoming what I don't think you can sugarcoat it. Anti-Israel, at least to a certain maybe not full blown anti-Semitic, although some of them there are elements there. But I never thought it's some of it. Some of it's the podcasting group. They're not technically, you know, part of the Republican Party. I don't think you're part of the party unless you're held.

[01:39:22] You're holding office. That is that is that is a very good distinction. That is very good. I'm glad you said that, because, yeah, the majority of that group does seem to be on sort of the the more fringe right online space. But that fringe is getting less fringe. Right. And unfortunately, for those that are part of the Republican Party, they're bunched in together. You have to deal with that now.

[01:39:46] And I've said I've I've kind of not that I'm an expert, but I've kind of said that I don't think the next presidential election I don't think is winnable for Republicans. You've got it. You've got it. They've got to come up with some just crazy candidate that can appeal to mainstream voters. And there are so many of those, you know, problematic elements of the right.

[01:40:15] And then you have just the general anti Donald Trump sentiment that's still lingering out there, even even in the not the moderate, the the independent voters. Like you're always going to have that. But the MAGA crowd is going to dissipate because Donald Trump's not there anymore. Yeah. So they need a successor who can carry the Trump banner, which I don't think there's anyone on planet Earth that can do that.

[01:40:39] But maybe you can find somebody sufficiently Trumpian that also won't alienate members of the far right who there are several, at least in discourse, don't know how many actual numbers there are, but who are certainly willing to jump off the Trump bandwagon. And by virtue of that, the Republicans, unless the Republicans go further right than Trump.

[01:41:01] And then, like I said, you've got the, you know, the more rank and file Republicans that kind of are not never Trumpers, but they're kind of like, I don't know that I like what the parties become. I just, I think that's a trick that I don't think anybody can really pull off. It's going to be interesting. I think it still comes down to choices. Sure. So, you know, let's say it's J.D. Vance and Gavin Newsom. It's like, okay, well, people are going to have to make a choice.

[01:41:29] I hate to say that, but I think in that race, I think Newsom wins. Oh, that's interesting. I do think it comes down to those choices. I think the other problem, you know, in these military actions are making the, you know, not so much with the so-called podcast group, the anti-Semitic type stuff that you see by Israel.

[01:41:55] But I think young people generally have other concerns besides, they haven't, they've lived through the terrorism, but they're not the same way. I don't think it's ingrained in them. And those voters that were coming over, especially young males and did come over for Trump, are they still there or will they be gone? Right now, I'd say they're leaving.

[01:42:19] Well, if they can manage to improve the economy, which I don't think they can do realistically, not in that such short a time, I don't think you can get it back to a prosperous level. Although maybe, because Trump did some pretty incredible work in his first term, economically speaking. I think without the economy getting, I mean, just hardcore turned around, I don't think that coalition is going to stick around. That's just me.

[01:42:47] It does come back to, it's the economy, stupid. It's almost all the time. James Carville hasn't said much since then. That's very good. But that one was true. It always is. And, you know, Bush, H.W. Bush, you know, it was starting to turn around. The numbers were, but people didn't feel it. Yeah. So when you talk about that short time, you have a very short time to get people to feel it in their pocketbook.

[01:43:14] And I think especially that group of younger people, can they buy homes? You know, are they making enough money? You know, that's important. And they're not solidly Republican. They weren't solidly anything. So. Well, I'm just, yeah, I'm just afraid that the Democrat Party, because it was weird. I don't remember who it was. I think it was some random YouTube channel. But they were talking about things and they made it no mistake.

[01:43:42] Like, they're like, we're right ring America for the America First movement, I guess you could call it. But they're calling for basically government social programs. And I'm like, wow. And you're on the political right. But again, it's that whole thing. It's like, well, we want this for me. Not for everybody else. But it's like, you're literally calling for socialist programs and you're on the right.

[01:44:12] Good luck threading that needle. But, you know, again, you get to say what you will about Gavin Newsom. He's charismatic. He knows how to work the camera. And if he gets up there and says, you know, like, well, for the last 20 years, it's been unfair for the average American. And we're going to make it fair by giving you free money. Yeah. I mean, free money goes a long way. It does.

[01:44:40] It's unfortunate because principles are out the window. They'll flood the economy with money and not care about the effect as long as they are elected. Because we never learn. Right. And I think you'll see that on both parts. I'm not surprised when you say there's some people that want, you know, so-called socialist programs, you know, and they're on the right.

[01:45:07] I mean, they're now some on the left. You know, I've seen all kinds of ideas on what people should be given. And it's like that doesn't work. No. It's never worked. And now we just double down on it. You know, well, everybody can buy a house because we're going to give them, you know, $50,000. Well, wait a minute. You can't buy a house for $50,000, guys. Well, right.

[01:45:34] But, you know, now we've got a down payment or you have no down payment. But when people, you know, we've tried that too. And, you know. Yeah. But then the house goes from $450,000 to, you know, a million. Right. Well, a lot of it's the supply, right? Yeah. If you have more homes, you'd have prices at least stagnate for existing homes. Mm-hmm. And you'd have a chance of, you know, buying a home where you want. Yeah.

[01:46:04] But unfortunately, we haven't gotten to the point of building a lot of homes. You know, when's the last time that was done? After World War II? To that degree, yeah. Yeah, which I have a theory that that period, because as I'm sure you agree, if you don't, let me know. But history is cyclical. But just occasionally, you have these periods that you might see times similar to that.

[01:46:29] I think that period, that post-World War II boom in the United States, I don't think we'll ever really see a period like that, that sort of golden age again, because there were just too many perfect elements that were hitting at the exact same time for our country. Like we were the only major manufacturing force that hadn't been ravaged by that war. Yeah. I think that's true. The ingredients were all there to have just that economic and baby boom. Yeah. Post-war.

[01:46:58] Or I don't know that we'll ever see, barring some worldwide cataclysm, which I really don't want to happen. And if the United States can somehow stay separated from it, I don't, I just don't see that happening again. But that's a myth that politicians on both sides of the aisle are chasing. And I think it's just unrealistic to, they're going to do it because it sounds good on a campaign trail, but. Right. Right.

[01:47:23] And it, you know, the problem on the campaign trail, it's tough because, you know, the people running don't really know what it's like. You know, we can say, well, I had a tough two when I got out of school. I had to struggle with fears and loans. When I left Harvard. It doesn't matter to the guy that he has there. Right? If you can't find a house, it's the same way when you talk about how the economy's doing. Like, I didn't feel anything, you know, when Clinton, well, when James Carville made the, you know, it's the economy stupid.

[01:47:52] I'm thinking things are fine. Yeah. For me, it was, you know, but if it wasn't, if I was out of work at that time, I might have felt differently. Or, you know, even though I wasn't making what I wanted to make, I still felt, well, I'm doing fine. Yeah. I mean, everything's paid for. Right. Expectations are different, right? You're always sitting there. We could all use more money, right? For sure. We'd always like Elon Musk money if we could get it. Of course. You know, win the Powerball.

[01:48:22] But, you know, for most of us, it's like, well, I make X and I spend Y. I'm fine. I'm okay. And if that continues, you're fine. When it's inverted, you know, now you want to blame someone. And who do we blame? Usually the party in power. Yeah. It's not what else. It's not us. Yeah. It's never. It's never. Which, I mean, to be fair, I've actually started to kind of come off that whole, I don't want to say that bootstrap belief, but like, I'm big on personal responsibility.

[01:48:52] But, I mean, using houses as an example, I mean, like, if you live in an area, like I live in the north side of Indianapolis, and house prices are high here. They just are. And it's hard to gain entry into this market. The problem is a lot of the surrounding areas are not, they're cheaper, but they're not particularly good. Like, they're not the worst. But, so you're going to have to sacrifice location or price. Yeah.

[01:49:20] And a lot of us, I don't know if it's still being done, but, you know, we'd start, you know, I started at a condo, you know, moved to a, I was actually renting a house that was small, then was renting like an apartment, you know, and then bought a house. It took a while. Yeah. It does take time. Yeah, my first apartment, I shared, God, I miss my rent. I shared it.

[01:49:45] I had a roommate, I know, because, yeah, I mean, you have roommates, and I paid $2.89 a month for a two-bedroom. There you go. That was my half, utilities included. Boy, I miss that. If only you had stayed. Of course, the rent is probably a lot more now, but. I don't know that it's a lot more, because, funnily enough, my old roommate still lives there, and I'm guessing he still lives there because it's still relatively cheap. I'm sure it's under $1,000 a month. I'm sure. Which, anymore, that's pretty darn cheap for a three-bedroom apartment. I don't care where you are.

[01:50:15] Yeah. I'm sure, yeah, that is good. And, you know, part of it is, yeah, you've got to go in stages. A lot of people think they should have a new house. A lot of people want to jump, yeah. And it's like, you can't have it. I mean. No. You may never have it, but I can tell you it's not going to be your first house unless, you know, maybe you're in the Trump family or something. Maybe, maybe. I don't know, I know some people whose parents gave them down payment for a first house. And it's like. Yeah.

[01:50:43] I mean, I get the whole wanting them to get ahead, but I don't know that that's the best way. Because then they go out thinking like, well, I did this. Well, I don't know that you did it, but. Well, right. I guess you have to. That's up to the parents to decide. Exactly. And, you know, you got to trust. I guess hopefully you've raised your kid the right way or kids. Yeah. So if they don't have a head like that that keeps getting bigger, look at me. One would hope.

[01:51:11] But I mean, to kind of bring it all back for a circle, I mean, I would argue that that's. That's probably the biggest reason to learn history, even if you're not going into it professionally. It's just like if you know what has happened, you can at least have some kind of an idea of what will happen. Not exactly. Or at least that's what I firmly believe. But you can look to anything that's happening now and something similar has happened, whether it was 50 years ago, whether it was 5,000 years ago. Something similar has happened somewhere.

[01:51:42] Well, right. And maybe people that are looking for homes, you almost hope, hey, if we have another real estate crash, the housing will be cheap. But the problem with that is it's usually tied into your own job. Yeah. Or, you know, yeah, it's not going to do you any good because you don't have the money still. But I mean, you get creative.

[01:52:06] I do believe that I think I think multi-generational family living will be becoming more commonplace in the United States just out of economic necessity. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing because the vast majority of the rest of the world, that's been the standard for thousands of years. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, you know, in this area, in the Chicagoland area, a lot of two flats, three flats were part of, you know, and especially among certain ethnic groups.

[01:52:35] My mother-in-law, an Italian who, you know, has passed since. But, you know, she would always say, why don't you just move upstairs? Like, because I'm not sure we want to live with you. But, you know, it was a nice offer. For sure. Yeah. It was a great idea. But, you know, I think people have gotten away with, you know, we all want to have our own home. And, you know, it's like, okay. But some of those are zoning issues if they would fix that. Yeah, that's true.

[01:53:05] You know, I do think it's not a bad way to live. You know, you could have, you know, especially with grandparents taking care of the grandkids. They're there. You've got a built-in babysitter. Well, it was because when my wife and I, we bought a house in December of last year. And when we were looking, I was trying to, because my mom and her husband aren't sick or anything. But they're getting older. And I said, it's like, it sounds morbid. But it's only a matter of time before something happens to somebody.

[01:53:34] And, you know, there are living conditions to consider. So I was trying to get them to, like, we can buy a bigger house together. And then it works out for you guys because it's less money up front for you. It's less money monthly for you. It's less money for both of us. And you don't have to, like, if you need help, you don't have to call me. I don't have to drive an hour. I live there if you need something.

[01:53:59] And by virtue is, like, when you guys do pass, we have a bigger house in our name. Like, it's a win-win for everybody. But they didn't want to do it. So they're baby boomers. What can I say? Well, yeah. And people don't, it changes something. You know, it's hard to get people out of their home. It really, well, they don't, that's the part that wasn't. So they lost their home to a house fire.

[01:54:22] So they're in a retirement living condo that they have to, sorry, mom, if you didn't want anybody to know this. They have to dip into savings to pay for every month. And I'm just like, you guys got to get out of there. Yeah. Yeah, that's a tough one. And, you know, but sometimes those of us who have some age on us don't always make the best decision either. It's like, I don't think so. For whatever reason. I let it go. I just said, hey, it's just an idea.

[01:54:52] Right. Sometimes you think you have a great idea and the other people think, not such a great idea. This is a terrible idea. But maybe, maybe. The offer was there. Right. So I did my part. As a son. But what it goes down to is just, I guess on this channel, we're big on reading. We're big on books. We're big on history. We're big on philosophy. And they're all intertwined.

[01:55:15] We like read a lot, learn a lot, learn about history and put your ideas out there because it might be crazy, but you might have the next great one. Right. And tons of people were thought of as crazy until they changed the world. So. Yeah. Most of them, I think. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. That's true. Probably. Yeah. Most of them. Like, could you imagine what they thought about, again, the founding fathers? Like, everybody in Europe was like, these guys are nuts. Yes.

[01:55:42] You're taking on the world's greatest power and you think you're going to win? I mean, they probably played for the, you know, the revolutionaries because they looked at it like, we don't care. We'll either die or we'll win. And the, you know, Great Britain was looking at it like, yeah, this should be easy. It's almost like Trump says, we'll be done in two weeks. We'll be there. We'll be out. You know, it's. And then you find out, wait a minute, they're fighting differently.

[01:56:12] They're almost terrorist-like. Yeah. This is a different kind of fight. That's when George Washington says, they're where on Christmas Eve? Hold my beer. Right. I mean, it's a different kind of battle and they weren't used to it. So they kind of underestimate the opponent, which that's been going on historically too. You know, we've probably underestimated terrorism, you know, and people have been united over the years. Yeah. Well, I mean, there is always the examination of motivation, which again, is part of learning history.

[01:56:42] It's like, you know, you can't fathom that the other side would be so fanatical because you don't understand their past. Right. You don't understand the movement. Once you do, you're like, oh, right. This is a little bit deeper than we thought, fellas. Right. Right. And that's the problem when you look at Iran, you go, okay, unless you change the regime, are you changing anything? It's going to be, it might be 10 years, might be 20 years, might be two years.

[01:57:12] They're coming back if you don't change it. Yeah. It's still what it is. Yep. Well, everyone should definitely check out your book, DC Swamp Strikes Back. I'm excited to read it just for, well, for everything, but I really do want to learn more about Aaron Burr because I feel like I've, I've sort of let him down historically because I just don't know that much about him. And I feel like I need to rectify that. But Dennis, where else can they find you online? Should they wish? I'm on X.

[01:57:40] I'm on Truth Social, Facebook. I have a website that's under construction. We changed it, but it's going to be up again, DennisABrennan.com. On there, we'll have not only this book, other books as we write them, and, you know, a blog that we plan on doing pretty regularly, podcast appearances like this. Awesome. And all those links will be in the description.

[01:58:09] If the website link doesn't work for you yet, just give us some time. It'll eventually, it'll work when they get finished constructing. And you mentioned there's another book that's being edited right now. Do you want to, can you tell us what that one's about or is that still a secret? It's still a secret, but it's another comparative historical book. Can you, I'm not going to ask you to tell me who it is, but is it, is it a similar figure to Donald Trump or is it somebody more on the left side of the aisle?

[01:58:36] I would say it's, no, it's someone to the right, but it's not really a politician. That's interesting. Yeah. Oh, okay. I consider Trump's a politician now after all these years. Right, right. Oh, maybe it's Musk. No, I like the fact. So your, your, your plan is to basically do like a series of these comparative books? Yes. Oh, wow. That's going to be, that's going to be fun. Can't wait to read it.

[01:59:06] But, but thank you so much for coming on today, Dennis. It's been a pleasure. I know you probably have other things to do, so I won't keep you on here any longer, but, because I can, I can go on history for forever. So, but if you ever want to come on again, you're always welcome. Let me know when the other book comes out and we'll have, we'll have fun then too. I appreciate it. I really enjoyed this and have a good rest of your day. You too, Dennis. Have a good one. Thank you for coming on again. Okay. Thanks. Bye.