The Final Frontier Season 1 Episode 12: Haven't We Been Here Before?

[00:00:00] This podcast is brought to you by The Startup Core Podcast, and by The Complete Guide to Happiness with Dr. Fantastic.

[00:00:11] The Final Frontier Podcast. These are the voyages of Jake Boger and Justin Spur.

[00:00:17] Our weekly mission to explore memories of Star Trek's strange new worlds, to recall the search for new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no one has had the spare time to go before.

[00:00:30] Are you ready to go?

[00:01:20] Yes, let's talk Star Trek. I've got so much to say about one half of one episode.

[00:01:26] The rest of it, not so much.

[00:01:29] Right, so welcome everyone to The Final Frontier, our little vanity project.

[00:01:36] If you're around our comments section, you'll get the reference.

[00:01:40] We are talking...

[00:01:41] That's an essay, dude.

[00:01:42] I mean, okay, so here's the thing. I'm not going to read the comment again because it's lengthy.

[00:01:47] I can't tell if he's trying to be non-descending or if it just kind of...

[00:01:53] Maybe I took it that way. I don't know, but it's just...

[00:01:55] I just... I chuckled a bit because, like, but yeah, it's our vanity project.

[00:01:59] But anyway, today we are talking about The Menagerie, parts one and two.

[00:02:03] So it's a double episode.

[00:02:05] But since this is essentially one episode doubled in length by footage from a different episode...

[00:02:14] Yeah.

[00:02:15] We're just going to treat this as one.

[00:02:16] Because I did find it was funny.

[00:02:18] I found myself really into this as long as it wasn't footage from the pilot.

[00:02:23] Oh my God, I'm so glad you said that because I was dying.

[00:02:27] I was...

[00:02:29] You know how hard I resisted just skipping the pilot footage?

[00:02:33] I was like, I'm feeling like it ruins the spirit of this if I do this, but I've already seen this.

[00:02:38] Yes, it does. And I'm glad I didn't because I caught some very, very subtle editing differences, which I have a note on later.

[00:02:46] So we won't forget that.

[00:02:47] But as stated before, this is The Menagerie, parts one and two.

[00:02:51] These episodes take place between stardate 3012.4 and 3012.6.

[00:02:58] Show date is the year 2267.

[00:03:02] And the original air dates were November 17th and 24th of 1966.

[00:03:08] Technically speaking, this episode is written by Gene Roddenberry.

[00:03:11] There was an initial script that was written first, but Roddenberry hated it so much that he rewrote basically 80% of it.

[00:03:18] And the new segments were directed by Mark Daniels.

[00:03:22] And I'm sorry, I forgot. It's in our pilot.

[00:03:27] Yeah, I think we've seen him before.

[00:03:28] He's a veteran director by this point in Star Trek.

[00:03:31] The original director of the pilot also gets direct and credit because most of these two episodes was actually footage from the pilot.

[00:03:40] So yes, fun fact.

[00:03:42] It was another fun fact.

[00:03:43] This is the only two part episode in Star Trek, the original series.

[00:03:47] Really?

[00:03:48] It's the only two parter.

[00:03:50] I would have just cold hard guess, assumed that the mirror universe episode would have been two parts as well.

[00:03:56] That's what I thought.

[00:03:57] No, that's one.

[00:03:58] Really?

[00:03:59] I think the Deep Space Nine mirror universe episode is a two parter.

[00:04:02] I could be wrong though.

[00:04:03] And two parters.

[00:04:04] I'm pretty sure the Enterprise one is.

[00:04:05] Well, I think you're right.

[00:04:07] Where Sato is somehow like the captain.

[00:04:12] Is it?

[00:04:13] No, no, sorry.

[00:04:13] Sorry.

[00:04:14] It's not that because I always thought the mirror universe was the series finale.

[00:04:16] No, but the series finale of enterprises is a what's his face?

[00:04:21] William Riker in the hollow day.

[00:04:23] It turns out that the whole the whole show is just William Riker in the hollow day.

[00:04:26] No, it's actually only the last episode.

[00:04:28] Oh, is it?

[00:04:29] Yeah, they do.

[00:04:30] It's and it was a bit of a wah wah.

[00:04:33] I really wish they would have gotten there at least one more season.

[00:04:37] Is that my thing is like always and you're like always always like and your show never

[00:04:42] and your show on a cliffhanger.

[00:04:43] I always end your season's at least somewhat satisfyingly in case you don't get called

[00:04:47] back.

[00:04:47] Yeah, for real.

[00:04:49] But that was right when Enterprise was starting to really hit its stride.

[00:04:52] So it seems actually we all hardcore Trekkies know why I got canceled anyway.

[00:04:57] And we'll I'm we'll dig into that really hard when we finally get to Star Trek Enterprise.

[00:05:01] So like share and subscribe so we can get there because apparently competition out there

[00:05:07] there are stiff if competition this episode was a solution to a growing problem in the

[00:05:12] show's early production the special effects time it was the special effects for Star Trek

[00:05:18] were admittedly unprecedented in 1966.

[00:05:24] I mean the level of that's why I always give it credit because like while the special effects

[00:05:30] and makeup actually it's a lot of it's still pretty good.

[00:05:32] I shouldn't even bring up the makeup.

[00:05:34] I mean the makeup I'm going to bring up a certain characters makeup later on because

[00:05:38] the makeup in this episode was good.

[00:05:39] Yeah, but the special effects are kind of laughable by today's standards by some people.

[00:05:44] I don't think so because I still I mean the transporter effect is still it's essentially

[00:05:49] it's essentially the same thing we do today.

[00:05:52] It's just done a little bit differently, but the effect is largely the same.

[00:05:56] And and we no longer have to use a still image to overlay the effect.

[00:05:59] We can now animate it.

[00:06:00] But but again, it has its genesis here.

[00:06:03] The occasional moment of like characters being like an action.

[00:06:07] But other than that, like over 66 but for 66 and the other thing you have to understand

[00:06:13] too is that on a broadcast television in 1966 you probably couldn't see it to the same

[00:06:19] degree that you see on say a digital television today clearly as we're seeing it now.

[00:06:24] Yeah, so it was probably quite seamless for the eyes of television on that day.

[00:06:29] But the fact remains this was a very special effects heavy episode and virtually every

[00:06:34] episode took longer than anticipated and it was accumulating effects.

[00:06:38] So this was building a backlog of episodes that were waiting for special effects to you

[00:06:44] know get completed shows getting delivered to NBC later and later in order to fulfill their

[00:06:48] series commitment on time run Barry wrote this two part episode that needed only one week

[00:06:54] of production.

[00:06:55] So one week of production for two episodes.

[00:06:57] Interesting because if a lot of this feels like filler.

[00:07:02] You know what word in in a way it is but it's a different kind of usually you.

[00:07:07] Well, I mean I suppose in a way it's filler because filler exists to bridge the gap.

[00:07:11] Yeah, between the source material running out of material and yeah keeping the tea.

[00:07:16] So yeah, this is it's unique filler though because there is a story here and a damn good one.

[00:07:21] I look I really like the first part of this episode and the ending of the second part.

[00:07:26] But I do have I do have my notes on that.

[00:07:28] They're not they're not really deep notes.

[00:07:31] I didn't I didn't get the second episode because I assumed it was just like the same as the first part,

[00:07:36] but it's just Pike is back and obviously this is our first multi-parter which we have already we have already discussed.

[00:07:42] They did mention something about Spock, but I thought that that was kind of I didn't I didn't realize how much of a part

[00:07:49] he was gonna play in this in this drama.

[00:07:52] Oh, I mean he's it he's he's he is the drama.

[00:07:55] He's like am I the drama Spock is all the drama, but our story begins with the Enterprise arriving at Starbase 11 in response to a subspace call.

[00:08:04] First officer Spock reported receiving from the former captain of the Enterprise Christopher Pike Commodore Mendez the Starbase commander informs Captain Kirk that Pike could not have sent any message as a recent accident has left him with locked in syndrome unable to move or communicate.

[00:08:21] Other than answering yes. No questions with the aid of a device operated by his brain waves.

[00:08:27] So it's funny. We spoke earlier prior to shooting.

[00:08:31] You said you didn't have many many notes.

[00:08:33] I've got so many notes on the scene.

[00:08:35] So like just like strap in folks number one free in previous episodes.

[00:08:40] I stated that we had net we had not been to a nice planet on the show yet.

[00:08:44] This planet looks nice for once.

[00:08:46] I love the set design like I love the background paintings.

[00:08:49] I just love I love how it look.

[00:08:51] It reminded me of Coruscant from start from Star Wars like it's like a planet.

[00:08:55] That's just like a building, you know, it's just like a metropolis.

[00:08:58] I'm really cool.

[00:08:59] And then I was wondering if it was headquarters, which we find out it's not because clearly it's not Earth because Earth is way close.

[00:09:07] Unless Earth is way closer to Saturn in the future.

[00:09:10] No, they're there.

[00:09:11] They're ways off.

[00:09:12] So that just happens to be a planet with rings.

[00:09:13] It was funny.

[00:09:14] I know the shot you're talking about and it's simultaneously looked great and cheap.

[00:09:19] I yeah, but like I for me, it was the I really like the the perspective of seeing like the people way in the distance.

[00:09:26] I was like that considering that's probably just like as you put it a painting in the background is an impressive effect for 1966 like it makes the space look way bigger than I'm sure it probably was.

[00:09:37] Absolutely.

[00:09:38] Her hair blowing in the wind looks so unnatural.

[00:09:40] Oh, you noticed that too.

[00:09:42] Yeah, it's super fake.

[00:09:44] Yeah, I was like what is happening with her hair?

[00:09:47] Which I'm also I so this might be weird to me.

[00:09:50] And this is why at many points in the show.

[00:09:53] We'll get some hate from like hardcore Trekkies, even though I consider myself one I'm not.

[00:09:59] I'm not going to argue over like some of the finer details, but it seems kind of silly to me that a star base is on a planetary surface.

[00:10:09] I mean, I just kind of assumed that that was just that's just what they called it.

[00:10:12] Like it's just the name.

[00:10:13] I suppose.

[00:10:14] But to me, star base.

[00:10:15] But but OK, and Starfleet based off star base off stuff Starfleet.

[00:10:20] Well, I mean, I imagine so.

[00:10:22] Yes.

[00:10:22] And to be fair, there are space stations in the series and they are a different thing.

[00:10:27] So maybe I'm I'm probably conflating the two.

[00:10:31] I being pedantic as I am.

[00:10:33] I did not did not put that connection together.

[00:10:35] But I do have a connection about Starfleet.

[00:10:38] That's common when we introduce the next characters.

[00:10:41] What I found interesting, though, and one of the which, again, I'm not faulting the show at all for this, but this is taking place in the 23rd century.

[00:10:50] And as of today and realistically, as of the 1980s or certainly by the 90s, we had progressed past this system that Mike is using.

[00:10:59] Which system?

[00:11:00] The beeping, the beeping for yes.

[00:11:03] Well, OK, so we've got to we're at Pike.

[00:11:05] What Pike looks like.

[00:11:06] We're there.

[00:11:07] Yeah, because first thought on Pike is, oh, my God, I get that reference now from South Park.

[00:11:12] It's the T.

[00:11:13] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:11:14] Yeah.

[00:11:15] I was like, holy shit.

[00:11:16] Like, I love it.

[00:11:17] Wait, like for me, I love the thing about appreciating old shit as I've gotten older is it makes me retroactively appreciate pop culture references like like unrelated.

[00:11:28] But at time of recording, I am I am knee deep in Halloween specials and I'm watching the Treehouse of Horror episodes.

[00:11:35] And there's just so many of those bits where I like the the the Freddy Krueger Willie groundskeeper Willie is Freddy Krueger.

[00:11:44] I appreciated that like so much more watching this because I watched I've watched all those movies now.

[00:11:49] So it's like I just so it's going back and be like, hey, that's where that's from.

[00:11:53] It's so much more fun than recognizing it the first time for me.

[00:11:56] Yeah, it's always great when you I actually find it a little bit more entertaining when you get a reference retroactively.

[00:12:04] Yes.

[00:12:05] And then you're like, oh, that's right.

[00:12:07] It's it's kind of like where now I I didn't get to enjoy that with South Park the way you did because the planetarium episode because I had seen that episode of Star Trek before.

[00:12:17] So I recognized it.

[00:12:18] I still found it funny, but it's its own way.

[00:12:21] But yeah, yeah, I'm trying to remember what movie that was because I hadn't seen this movie for a very long time.

[00:12:26] And it was like as I'm watching it, I'm like, I get so many.

[00:12:28] Oh, Dirty Dancing.

[00:12:29] The first time I watched Dirty Dancing, I'm like, oh, I get so many references now.

[00:12:34] A lot of a lot of 80s 80s movies when I watched them, I go, oh, so that's where Family Guy got that from.

[00:12:40] Yeah, yeah.

[00:12:43] The guy's the one where he loves his 80s shit where I'm like, oh, OK, I get this now.

[00:12:47] Well, because it's awesome.

[00:12:48] But what I'm talking about with Pike, he is only able to communicate using the beeping light, whereas you have apparatus similar like what Stephen Hawking had.

[00:12:59] Yeah.

[00:13:00] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:13:01] Fair point.

[00:13:02] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:13:02] Yeah.

[00:13:03] Which you which he uses his eye, if I'm not mistaken, he uses his eye to guide his, you know, digital keyboard to type out what to say, which that's just wild to me.

[00:13:13] Not to be dark, but used past tense.

[00:13:17] Oh, valid, valid, used, used.

[00:13:21] Yeah, yeah.

[00:13:22] I mean, to be fair, everyone made fun of that, although apparently he heard.

[00:13:26] Well, I think if I I'm getting this right, which I'm sure I'm not his particular tone of voice that he used, it was like copyright protected.

[00:13:36] So like whenever they parried him in like movies and television stuff, that's why it always sounded slightly different was because they weren't actually allowed to use because that was like that's like akin to like theft or something or something, which is why when he actually guest stars, it sounds right.

[00:13:52] It's because, yeah, yeah, he has some sort of like legal had some sort of legal claim over that particular computer output.

[00:13:59] But I could be wrong about that.

[00:14:00] I'm pretty sure.

[00:14:00] I don't know, but theoretically, I'm believe me, I'm not a lawyer.

[00:14:05] Theoretically, that is now his voice.

[00:14:08] That's what I'm I'm pretty sure I've heard that before.

[00:14:11] Like he had some sort of I don't know if it's copyright or some sort of legal.

[00:14:15] It might fall.

[00:14:16] It might fall into likeness rights.

[00:14:18] Yeah, I would say likeness rights.

[00:14:20] Yeah, I'm not sure.

[00:14:21] So that's interesting.

[00:14:22] Yeah, you're right.

[00:14:22] Now that you say that this does feel like a very 1960s solution to dealing with an invalid.

[00:14:28] My thing I've got so many notes, but how could they how could the in their defense?

[00:14:32] How could they know?

[00:14:33] How could they know?

[00:14:34] I mean, I I they theoretically I know.

[00:14:38] Yeah, you're right.

[00:14:38] I don't know what they my thing was like, wait, the thing has to be pushed around.

[00:14:42] It just seems comfortable, right?

[00:14:44] Well, they say he can operate it a little bit with his brainwave.

[00:14:46] So they kind of make it clear that it's at one point.

[00:14:49] She even says like he can back it up a little interest.

[00:14:51] I mean, for me, just kind of became apparent that like outside of the show, this thing was very clearly very heavy.

[00:14:59] And it took three of them to push it.

[00:15:02] It's like it's one of those things where it's like we're in we're in space and yet wheels.

[00:15:10] Right, right.

[00:15:10] Well, I think it's like I was expecting it to like Dalek like float a little bit where like we didn't see the mechanism that was moving it like like the wheels moving it.

[00:15:19] But like they give the thing.

[00:15:20] Yeah, give the thing.

[00:15:22] But yeah, wheels hide it hide it and then make it look lighter.

[00:15:26] It was it was a very strange scene of them wheeling him out.

[00:15:30] I'm like, yeah, it seems extremely heavy and cumbersome.

[00:15:33] Right.

[00:15:34] Also, also in regards to Pike, his makeup, his makeup is good.

[00:15:40] Like it is awful and upsetting looking like it is is like it just he looks uncomfortable like it looks good.

[00:15:47] I'm like impressive when good makeup, good quality makeup.

[00:15:51] Yeah. And the other thing I noticed that which I had I had it's not a funny scene, but I just had to chuckle because.

[00:15:57] At some point in the episode, actually, I think it's later, but I'll I'll address it now is in it's in Kirk's log.

[00:16:03] That's what he does. He specifically says a space accident.

[00:16:07] I'm like, did we really have to designate it as a space accident?

[00:16:11] Like, I mean, just say the man about some space racism later, so it's OK.

[00:16:16] I'm with it. I'm with it.

[00:16:18] I think if we talked about this before, the symbol on on their shirts are different.

[00:16:22] The girl and his.

[00:16:23] Yeah.

[00:16:24] And this is a thing that doesn't I don't think it comes back or if it comes back, it comes back sparingly.

[00:16:31] So like this obviously would be like the space Navy.

[00:16:34] I think that's pretty clear.

[00:16:35] A star base theoretically might be more classified as like army operations.

[00:16:40] So maybe it's a different rest.

[00:16:41] But eventually this becomes the default symbol for just the Federation's military.

[00:16:47] I thought maybe it was like he was of higher rank and that's what he is different.

[00:16:51] See, I thought I thought that, too.

[00:16:52] But his.

[00:16:53] She also has a different symbol.

[00:16:54] Yeah.

[00:16:54] And I don't.

[00:16:55] And she's not even an officer, I don't think.

[00:16:57] And she's certainly junior to Kirk.

[00:16:59] They mentioned that Spock was with Pike for 11 years.

[00:17:02] That's a long time.

[00:17:03] So how long in relation has he been with Kirk at this point?

[00:17:07] I'm not sure about Kirk.

[00:17:09] However, it has been 13 years since the case.

[00:17:13] Yeah.

[00:17:13] They do say that later on.

[00:17:14] Yeah.

[00:17:14] 13 years.

[00:17:15] I was like, Oh, wow.

[00:17:16] Okay.

[00:17:16] So that's quite a length of time.

[00:17:18] Yeah.

[00:17:19] So it.

[00:17:21] Spock's loyalty makes sense, you know?

[00:17:23] So I guess 11 of those years he was with Pike and then two years he's been with Kirk,

[00:17:27] I guess.

[00:17:28] No, no, no, no, no.

[00:17:29] So it's, it's, it's, it's been 13 years from the events of the pilot to this point in

[00:17:37] the show.

[00:17:37] Oh, I see.

[00:17:38] I see.

[00:17:39] But at the point of pilot, how long had Spock been with Pike?

[00:17:42] I don't think they say, but that would be, that would be a question for strange new

[00:17:48] worlds, which we will get to eventually.

[00:17:50] Fair, fair, fair.

[00:17:51] Pike refuses to communicate with anyone except Spock.

[00:17:55] After Kirk and Mendez leave to discuss the situation, Spock reveals over Pike's repeated

[00:17:59] no signals that he intends to carry out a plan that he has made.

[00:18:03] A fun fact though.

[00:18:04] Although the scenes in the cage feature Jeffrey Hunter, the original actor that plays Captain

[00:18:09] Pike, he was unavailable and unaffordable to reprise his role as Captain Pike.

[00:18:16] I had that question.

[00:18:17] I was like, is it the same?

[00:18:18] Is it the same actor playing in a chair?

[00:18:20] I had the same one.

[00:18:21] Cause honestly I thought maybe, but they got Sean Kenny who resembled Hunter apparently

[00:18:27] and did heavy makeup effects too.

[00:18:30] I think the original story was different somehow, but yeah, Captain Pike has to be disabled

[00:18:34] for this story to work.

[00:18:36] Yeah.

[00:18:36] Yeah.

[00:18:37] Yeah.

[00:18:38] Yeah.

[00:18:38] He does.

[00:18:38] Which means which, well, I'll, I'll say that later, but it turns out, and I didn't

[00:18:43] even put this together, which is sad.

[00:18:45] Cause I know about this episode.

[00:18:46] They, they took my advice finally on Star Trek after these many episodes, they finally

[00:18:50] took my advice.

[00:19:09] I'll see you later.

[00:19:21] I'll see you later.

[00:19:31] I'll see you later.

[00:19:41] Okay.

[00:19:42] Don't be suspicious.

[00:19:43] Don't be suspicious.

[00:19:46] Don't be suspicious.

[00:19:48] Don't be suspicious.

[00:19:48] Don't be suspicious.

[00:19:49] Don't be suspicious.

[00:19:49] Don't be suspicious.

[00:19:50] Cause he's creeping.

[00:19:51] Well, I think I, um, I have, I mean, I've, I have a couple notes about Spock's, Spock's

[00:19:56] deception.

[00:19:57] That is deception is remarkably well thought out, thought out and very elaborate.

[00:20:01] Um, I think it was like, where, where did he get that?

[00:20:04] Where did he get the exact vocal replica of like half the crew?

[00:20:08] Like that to me, that was impressive.

[00:20:10] I'm like, impressive move, sir.

[00:20:12] Well, I, I, I will reveal an editing trick.

[00:20:15] Uh, considering in the year 2024, AI is pretty good.

[00:20:19] I can imagine.

[00:20:20] I could imagine that in 2267 it's stellar.

[00:20:23] Um, I will say this much on I've taken to on many of the podcasts, we do the opening

[00:20:28] sponsorship bumper.

[00:20:30] Uh, you might hear a voice that does not sound familiar.

[00:20:33] That is my voice, but I use her voice character from Capgut and it completely changes it.

[00:20:41] I love doing that.

[00:20:42] It's super fun.

[00:20:43] Um, it's the, it's the Plath effect.

[00:20:46] Like Oliver Plath?

[00:20:48] Oliver?

[00:20:48] No, no, no.

[00:20:49] Jordan's Plath.

[00:20:50] Oh, you're not from Missouri.

[00:20:57] I love the night shot when it showed the set lit up for night.

[00:21:01] Like that looks really cool.

[00:21:02] I really liked that.

[00:21:04] Um, Kirk be flirting.

[00:21:05] When the, when the wood girl shows up.

[00:21:07] Kirk be flirting.

[00:21:08] Yeah.

[00:21:08] Well, especially it was like, I forget her friend's name that told her about Kirk.

[00:21:12] And he, when she mentions her name, Kirk gets very concerned.

[00:21:15] And I'm just like, wow, Kirk, damn son.

[00:21:18] How did you have time?

[00:21:19] How did you have time?

[00:21:21] I've said, I'm not sure what happened with Helen Johansson, but that is some legit panic.

[00:21:25] You know, he's like, Oh, Oh, what did she say?

[00:21:27] Oh no.

[00:21:28] What is it with Kirk and Helen's?

[00:21:30] Right.

[00:21:31] Helen.

[00:21:32] Well, I wasn't sure if that was a character that had been in a previous episode.

[00:21:36] And I was like, is that the girl that he, he got hypnotized into falling in love with?

[00:21:40] Was she without Helen?

[00:21:42] Helen Noel though.

[00:21:43] Oh no, my God.

[00:21:44] So it wasn't.

[00:21:45] So maybe he for a brief moment thought it was the same Helen.

[00:21:47] Oh, that would have been funny.

[00:21:48] And then, uh, Spock, you spot commandeering the ship.

[00:21:51] Uh, Spock tossed that man.

[00:21:53] Like he was nothing.

[00:21:54] And I just remember like, I just like Leonard Nimoy tossed that man.

[00:21:58] Like he was not the learning.

[00:21:59] My strong.

[00:22:00] Apparently.

[00:22:00] Like apparently the guy probably assisted.

[00:22:04] I was going to say it's choreographed action, but I'm kind of.

[00:22:07] So this is why I say Spock's plan wasn't great.

[00:22:10] So Spock should have dispatched that technician with the nerve pinch rather than try to wrestle

[00:22:17] him because at any point this gentleman could have stopped wrestling him and been like intruder

[00:22:22] alert.

[00:22:24] My favorite part is when the guy's going for the thing and then he throws them away and

[00:22:27] he goes back for it again.

[00:22:28] And then he tosses them as like, yeah, you're right.

[00:22:30] I think he ends it by, by nerve pinching him.

[00:22:32] Doesn't know it doesn't need nerve pinching when he first enters.

[00:22:34] And then he wakes up.

[00:22:35] There's a, there's another guy.

[00:22:37] No.

[00:22:37] So there's, oh, it's a second guy.

[00:22:38] Oh, they, they'll look similar when they're, when they're wearing the same

[00:22:41] uniform, which, and I, which, and I have to chuckle, which again, this I'm not faulting

[00:22:45] the show for this.

[00:22:46] Cause this was actually pretty, it would have been state of the art at the time when Spock opens

[00:22:50] the box and there's just the ever so little circuit board inside.

[00:22:54] Oh yeah.

[00:22:55] Yeah.

[00:22:56] It's just like the, the little tiny motherboard inside that big old box.

[00:23:00] But that was, I mean, that's high tech.

[00:23:03] That's how it was, man.

[00:23:04] That's how it was.

[00:23:05] And now, same, same.

[00:23:07] Oh, sorry.

[00:23:07] And now all, all of that computing power exists in this.

[00:23:12] Right?

[00:23:13] A little bitty chip.

[00:23:14] It's like this.

[00:23:15] So have we seen the report?

[00:23:16] You mentioned the report, but I paused it to read it.

[00:23:19] Cause I would, I always love reading paperwork and movies and stuff.

[00:23:21] Um, this report, the report references Starfleet.

[00:23:24] Is this the first official reference to Starfleet in the show?

[00:23:27] My name?

[00:23:28] No, I don't believe so.

[00:23:29] Um, I think we've heard it sparingly.

[00:23:33] Have we?

[00:23:33] Okay.

[00:23:34] I believe, but yeah, this would have been around the time where Starfleet and the, I think

[00:23:39] we've heard Starfleet.

[00:23:40] I don't know if we've heard the Federation yet.

[00:23:43] Interesting.

[00:23:44] Okay.

[00:23:44] Um, and then I couldn't remember what Spock's position in the ship was cause they called

[00:23:49] him science officer Spock.

[00:23:50] And I feel like we talked about this before, but he's, he's first officer now that's a

[00:23:55] promotion, right?

[00:23:56] No.

[00:23:57] So technically, so this is another thing because there's also a moment later, uh, where

[00:24:01] Spock really when Spock release, when Spock relinquishes command, where he gives

[00:24:07] it to some third Lieutenant and it, and technically next in line is Scotty.

[00:24:14] Uh, but obviously they have not, uh, established the chain of command in the show yet.

[00:24:19] And even, and even, even let's, let's assume that Scotty's unavailable for some reason, even

[00:24:24] then McCoy outranks the Lieutenant given, but the, the logic there might be because McCoy

[00:24:31] is probably not part of the chain of command being the chief medical officer.

[00:24:35] Um, you kind of need him in sick bay, which is why though there's numerous times where McCoy

[00:24:40] seems to at least to be able to challenge Kirk, if not outright supersede him.

[00:24:45] And I, I believe there are times later where in the event of a medical care bones can overrule

[00:24:52] Kirk, which I like.

[00:24:54] Let's we saw that in the previous episode where he was like, you know, if you don't do

[00:24:57] what I say, I'm going to report you.

[00:24:59] So yeah, that makes sense.

[00:24:59] Obviously I would say that's a check.

[00:25:01] That would, that would be a check and balance.

[00:25:03] I mean, McCoy can outright disobey a direct order from Kirk if it's medically necessary.

[00:25:11] Interesting.

[00:25:11] I mean, that makes sense.

[00:25:12] Yeah.

[00:25:13] Yeah.

[00:25:13] And, and, and I, and, and I, I absolutely agree with that.

[00:25:17] But that I said, I'm going to go to the report.

[00:25:19] We just want more note on the report, which is just that it feels a little space racist

[00:25:23] to specifically refer to him as half Vulcan.

[00:25:25] They don't refer to Pike as full human on that report.

[00:25:28] All I'm saying, I'm saying feels a tad space racist.

[00:25:31] Specifically call out his space race.

[00:25:33] I'm just saying.

[00:25:34] Well, there.

[00:25:35] Okay.

[00:25:35] So there's, I'm, I'm actually glad you brought up space racism.

[00:25:38] Cause there's a lot of it in particular, the conversation that Kirk and McCoy have,

[00:25:44] which on the one hand, you're kind of like, all right, bones at the end of the day, really

[00:25:48] cares about Spock and as his friend.

[00:25:50] And because he's defending him, turns out he's guilty of sin, but bones is going to bat

[00:25:55] for him.

[00:25:55] But all the logic that he and Kirk are using, cause when Kirk's arguing with Mendez, he

[00:25:59] says the same thing.

[00:26:00] He's like, he's not Vulcan.

[00:26:01] He can't do it.

[00:26:02] I'm like, yeah, he just suggests to suggest that a Vulcan can't tell a lie is more than

[00:26:09] a little racist.

[00:26:10] Right.

[00:26:11] Because what are the assumption that they can't, they can't commit subterfuge.

[00:26:15] That feels a tad, a tad condescending.

[00:26:18] Don't you think?

[00:26:19] Well, and, and gets changed around because the character Tuvok in Star Trek Voyager is

[00:26:23] sent to spy on the Maquis.

[00:26:26] So obviously Vulcans can lie.

[00:26:28] I'm guessing at this point, which enterprise ruins this.

[00:26:31] So there's no saving this in Canon.

[00:26:34] But at this point, they're even talking about it.

[00:26:36] It's like, as Kirk goes at one point, he's like, he's half human though.

[00:26:39] And McCoy goes, and he's buried it.

[00:26:41] You think he would risk the embarrassment?

[00:26:44] And I'm just like, but he does.

[00:26:47] But he is.

[00:26:47] Like he absolutely is.

[00:26:50] But it's not because he's half human.

[00:26:52] It's just, it's, it's kind of like this.

[00:26:54] It's weird because they're both defending their friend.

[00:26:58] Yeah.

[00:26:59] But not only are they blatantly wrong because Spock is in fact doing all these things, but

[00:27:04] the justification isn't that I know him.

[00:27:07] I've served with him.

[00:27:08] I trust him.

[00:27:09] It's he's a Vulcan.

[00:27:11] All right.

[00:27:11] It's, it's one of those episodes where a lot of illogical shit has to happen for the

[00:27:15] conflict in the episode to happen because you're like at the end and at the end, Kirk is like,

[00:27:20] you should have told me Spock.

[00:27:21] And it's like, yeah, yeah, you should.

[00:27:23] Yeah.

[00:27:23] You, you should have like, like you, the whole, this whole lie is really on, but we'll talk

[00:27:28] about it at the end.

[00:27:29] But I mean, I just have a note that just kind of says the key to getting away with lying

[00:27:33] is to never lie because nobody suspects Spock because he's honest all the time.

[00:27:37] So the one time he does lie, they're not terribly suspicious of it initially.

[00:27:41] Right.

[00:27:42] Now, the one, the one thing I can say, maybe the reason Spock didn't tell Captain Kirk is

[00:27:47] because if I'm given to understand the report on Talos for correctly, anybody who even talks

[00:27:53] about it.

[00:27:54] Yeah, I know.

[00:27:54] No, no.

[00:27:56] Yeah.

[00:27:56] Which again, we talked about this in the pilot.

[00:27:59] Why exactly?

[00:28:00] I don't really get extreme, but it's like Kronos, the Klingon homeward.

[00:28:05] Yeah, I can see going there.

[00:28:07] Right.

[00:28:07] Being, although, although they'll probably kill you.

[00:28:10] Yeah.

[00:28:11] You know, on Kronos, but I can see.

[00:28:14] Yeah.

[00:28:14] Kronos or Cardassian prime or.

[00:28:17] What's the one with the, not the Vulcans, the bad Klingons.

[00:28:21] Klingons.

[00:28:21] Yeah.

[00:28:21] Kronos.

[00:28:22] Kronos is Klingons.

[00:28:23] Okay.

[00:28:24] Yeah.

[00:28:26] Kronos is the Klingon home, but anywhere in the Klingon empire, really.

[00:28:30] I mean, yeah, that, but Talos for just seems like a really random thing for it to be the

[00:28:35] only thing that will get you the death penalty.

[00:28:38] What exactly are you afraid of?

[00:28:41] You don't want to.

[00:28:43] I was going to, I was going to say something mean.

[00:28:45] You, you can, you don't want to, you don't want to go have endless, endless, endless sex

[00:28:50] with a woman who's pretending to be hot.

[00:28:52] Well, that's just Vegas.

[00:28:53] I'm just, what I'm saying.

[00:28:55] You know, it doesn't seem like a bad time.

[00:28:56] It's just space Vegas.

[00:28:58] I will say I did.

[00:28:59] I did.

[00:28:59] I did.

[00:29:00] I did pay a bit more attention to the pilot parts at the end when he's like, you guys

[00:29:05] suck too much to appreciate good endless loving.

[00:29:08] I was like, Oh yeah.

[00:29:10] Okay.

[00:29:10] So that's, that's one of, they changed something in there.

[00:29:14] There's some scenes in there that I didn't recognize, but we'll get there.

[00:29:17] Other fun note.

[00:29:18] This is technically, this is okay.

[00:29:20] So this is where the Trekkies will get mad and I'm just going to reiterate.

[00:29:23] We are going in air date order, not episodic order because in terms of air date, this is

[00:29:30] the first time we see a shuttlecraft.

[00:29:32] This is not the first chronological episode where we see a start of a shuttlecraft, but

[00:29:38] this is the first one we see in terms of air date.

[00:29:41] Interesting.

[00:29:43] Which makes the plot of the naked time completely obsolete because.

[00:29:46] Look, shuttlecrafts exist.

[00:29:49] Yeah.

[00:29:50] Yeah.

[00:29:50] Yeah.

[00:29:50] You're not wrong.

[00:29:51] And once you know it, the enterprise has a hanger and where the shuttlecraft can land.

[00:29:56] And presumably they have other shuttlecraft, you know, that's just.

[00:30:01] Yeah.

[00:30:02] So there's, there's quite a bit of like space reverse racism in this episode because everybody's

[00:30:07] like, spot can't lie.

[00:30:09] He could never do such a thing because he's a Vulcan.

[00:30:11] And it's just kind of like, not only is that demonstrably not true in this series, no

[00:30:17] less.

[00:30:17] Because Spock lies all the time.

[00:30:20] Buck is a three dimensional person.

[00:30:22] He is very capable of lying extreme and good at it.

[00:30:26] I mean, debatably good at it, but you know, although to be fair, he had a certain point

[00:30:31] just kind of goes, yeah, I give up.

[00:30:33] They don't really catch him so much as he just.

[00:30:35] That was part of everything.

[00:30:37] That was part of his plan though.

[00:30:38] I know, but I'm saying if you want to, if you want to argue, you could say that, that

[00:30:42] the subterfuge was effective because he, he immediately surrenders and gives up.

[00:30:46] He doesn't try to continue it.

[00:30:48] Yeah.

[00:30:48] Which that's the only thing I kind of take issue within the script because it becomes

[00:30:51] very clear that Spock always intended to get caught and get court-martialed.

[00:30:55] Um, but they make it sound like he was sort of debating.

[00:30:57] I guess he wanted to make, I guess you can make the case that he wanted to make sure

[00:31:01] that there was no way that they could like apprehend him and take him back to the star

[00:31:05] base.

[00:31:06] So we had to wait till the shuttle was out of fuel.

[00:31:08] I think so.

[00:31:09] Yeah.

[00:31:10] I think you get a certain, I think he says that at one point, one of the lines is that

[00:31:13] I had to get a certain distance away so that we, we would be too close to, uh, yeah,

[00:31:18] I think, I think he does explain that.

[00:31:20] But what I'm saying is that as it's playing out on screen, it, it gives you the impression

[00:31:25] at least initially that Spock wasn't anticipating being followed, even though that's really silly

[00:31:31] because as soon as the enterprise leaves, Kirk's going to be like the fuck.

[00:31:34] Right.

[00:31:35] Right.

[00:31:36] The other thing is everybody knows he's lying because he has all these voice recordings

[00:31:40] and you exist in a time where video conferencing is a thing.

[00:31:44] That is what?

[00:31:45] Okay.

[00:31:46] It is, but also they, they, okay, now we're going to get there, but yeah, you're right.

[00:31:49] Yeah.

[00:31:49] It does.

[00:31:50] It does exist.

[00:31:51] Oh no.

[00:31:51] Yeah.

[00:31:52] You're right.

[00:31:52] Because they did the onscreen thing in the previous.

[00:31:54] Yeah.

[00:31:54] Yeah.

[00:31:57] That's true.

[00:31:57] Yeah.

[00:31:58] Yeah.

[00:31:58] Right.

[00:31:58] Cause they talked to the, the, the, the, the, the telosians or whatever.

[00:32:01] Yeah.

[00:32:01] And each of the pilots in fact, so it is a thing that can happen.

[00:32:06] He's just like, trust me, bro.

[00:32:08] The captain's on my side.

[00:32:09] See?

[00:32:10] Yeah, no, it's such a, it's, and it's written on like, I don't know if DeForest Kelly made

[00:32:15] that face on purpose to like show that he's like, this is bullshit.

[00:32:19] I'm not buying this.

[00:32:21] My favorite bit is where we, have we hit the point where he, where he confesses yet?

[00:32:25] Are we there?

[00:32:26] Not yet.

[00:32:26] Not yet.

[00:32:26] Okay.

[00:32:27] Okay.

[00:32:27] Cause I have some notes about, about DeForest Kelly in that, in the scene where he confesses.

[00:32:31] Well, we'll get there, but first guess what time it is.

[00:32:37] Spur time.

[00:32:39] Spur time.

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[00:33:12] Spock has Kirk and Mendez brought aboard and gives himself up, confessing to mutiny.

[00:33:18] The crew is unable to change the current course of the Enterprise, however, which is still

[00:33:21] heading towards Talos IV.

[00:33:23] Mendez convenes a hearing at which Spock requests immediate court-martial, which requires three

[00:33:28] command officers to oversee.

[00:33:31] Kirk objects that only he and Mendez are available, but Spock notes that Pike is still listed

[00:33:36] for the active duty, still listed on the active duty roster.

[00:33:39] The tribunal begins, and Spock offers his testimony, what seems to be video footage of

[00:33:44] the Enterprise's earlier visit to Talos IV in the year 2254.

[00:33:49] So, the one thing that I love, because I did a bit of an eye roll, and I always do a bit

[00:33:53] of an eye roll because they still do this in TV to this day, is they present like security

[00:33:58] or phone footage as clearly filmed.

[00:34:00] It's a big pet peeve of mine.

[00:34:02] I know.

[00:34:03] I saw that in other podcasts I listen to.

[00:34:06] They point out the same thing.

[00:34:08] Yeah, when you got HD footage on a security camera and you're like, what the fuck is that?

[00:34:11] And perfect camera angles and editing and editing.

[00:34:14] But for me it's so much more distracting when they attempt to lampshade it.

[00:34:20] Like that's infinitely more distracting.

[00:34:22] So when Kirk goes, how do you have footage that looks this good?

[00:34:25] It's impossible.

[00:34:26] And I have a note that says they're never going to reveal how Spock got this footage.

[00:34:30] Are they?

[00:34:30] They do though.

[00:34:30] And they don't.

[00:34:31] Do they?

[00:34:31] Maybe I missed how they do it, how we did.

[00:34:34] So it's being sent by the Talosians.

[00:34:38] Oh, okay.

[00:34:40] I must have completely missed that.

[00:34:41] Which I actually really appreciate because I was like, huh?

[00:34:44] In 1966 they had the foresight.

[00:34:47] With all?

[00:34:48] Yeah.

[00:34:48] To know that people are going to be like, hey, that's awful nice for, even though, and

[00:34:53] Star Trek is probably the only show you could get away with it because so many times, like

[00:34:58] how the view screen works makes no sense.

[00:35:00] That's how do you get a camera in some of the places that the view screen sees?

[00:35:04] It just doesn't.

[00:35:05] So it's plausible.

[00:35:06] I don't need an explanation.

[00:35:07] I'm like, it's Star Trek.

[00:35:08] It's science fiction.

[00:35:09] They have video cameras.

[00:35:11] But I liked it though, because at one point they're accusing Spock of faking it because

[00:35:14] they're like, these aren't log tapes.

[00:35:16] This is too good of footage.

[00:35:17] Yeah, you're right.

[00:35:18] My thing is though, in the 1960s, what makes it funny to me is lampshading like that exists

[00:35:24] because of people like us today.

[00:35:25] Like you look, that's why lampshading, like that's why movies go out of their way.

[00:35:30] That's why like movies like the Beauty and the Beast remake exists purely to answer questions

[00:35:35] nobody asked.

[00:35:36] Like, that's why that kind of lampshading exists.

[00:35:39] It didn't exist in the 1960s.

[00:35:41] No one in 1965 would have been like, how are they?

[00:35:44] How do they have such good security camera?

[00:35:46] They would have just been like, it's future shit.

[00:35:48] Well, they're just like, they're literally just like, I'm watching a thing in my living

[00:35:53] room.

[00:35:54] Right?

[00:35:55] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[00:35:55] We're not concerned with space.

[00:35:57] We're not concerned with the, we're not concerned with the how yet.

[00:36:01] Wait, no.

[00:36:02] Had they gone to space at that point?

[00:36:04] Um, no, I think that was later.

[00:36:06] I think that was 67.

[00:36:08] Hang on.

[00:36:08] I'm going to, yeah, they're like, we haven't even been to space yet.

[00:36:11] It's not novel to us.

[00:36:13] Oh no, we've been, we'd been to space.

[00:36:15] Yeah.

[00:36:15] I don't think we've done the moon landing yet.

[00:36:17] Oh, we hadn't done the moon landing, but we had been to space.

[00:36:19] Okay.

[00:36:19] Fair enough.

[00:36:21] You would know that's three years.

[00:36:23] The show debuted three years before the moon landings.

[00:36:27] Yeah.

[00:36:27] So they hadn't even really been to space.

[00:36:29] No, I think, I think John Glenn had been up there.

[00:36:32] I would.

[00:36:32] I wouldn't.

[00:36:33] I know.

[00:36:33] I know like the one that the Tom Hanks was in and I know that we have a big arm up

[00:36:37] there and that's all I really know about space.

[00:36:39] First man in space.

[00:36:40] Funny.

[00:36:40] Cause they like, well, of other ones, you never really think about them other than the

[00:36:44] one that landed.

[00:36:45] Well, that, I mean, that's, that's the big one.

[00:36:47] So Yuri, Yuri Gagarian had traveled first human to travel to space in 1961.

[00:36:53] Um, but he, he was the Russian.

[00:36:56] So.

[00:36:58] Right.

[00:36:59] John.

[00:36:59] Wait, the Russians got to space first.

[00:37:02] Uh, in.

[00:37:03] In orbit.

[00:37:03] Yes.

[00:37:04] Oh shit.

[00:37:05] Or maybe not even orbit just into space.

[00:37:07] I did not know that.

[00:37:09] I always thought you guys got there first.

[00:37:11] I guess that's how effective your propaganda is.

[00:37:13] We landed on the United States landed on the moon first.

[00:37:17] Um, you guys won the space race.

[00:37:20] The whole thing.

[00:37:22] I mean, I mean, overall.

[00:37:24] Yeah.

[00:37:24] But the Soviets were for, in fact, this is a nice little Easter egg for you.

[00:37:28] Way, way, way back in the, uh, late fifties.

[00:37:32] Uh, you're familiar with Astro Boy, I assume.

[00:37:34] Astro Boy, the superhero?

[00:37:36] Uh, the Japanese manga and anime.

[00:37:38] Yeah.

[00:37:38] Yeah.

[00:37:39] Yeah.

[00:37:40] Yeah.

[00:37:40] Yeah.

[00:37:40] Yeah.

[00:37:40] Yeah.

[00:37:42] Yeah.

[00:37:54] Yeah.

[00:37:55] And there's a flag on the moon.

[00:37:56] Guess what flag is up there?

[00:37:59] Japan?

[00:38:00] Soviet Union.

[00:38:02] Oh, interesting.

[00:38:02] Because they thought that the Soviet unions were going to get there first.

[00:38:04] And it honestly looked that way.

[00:38:06] Yeah.

[00:38:07] It looked that way all.

[00:38:08] It really did.

[00:38:09] They got all the good guys.

[00:38:10] I watched a video on this.

[00:38:10] They got all the good guys as far as rockets are concerned.

[00:38:13] Like they got all the,

[00:38:14] not all of them.

[00:38:15] They got most of them.

[00:38:16] They got most of them.

[00:38:17] Yeah.

[00:38:17] It was,

[00:38:17] it was America.

[00:38:18] I watched a really good video about the space race and yeah,

[00:38:22] you,

[00:38:22] and it was like,

[00:38:23] once you guys want it,

[00:38:23] everyone gave up basically,

[00:38:25] which is kind of a shame.

[00:38:26] But so,

[00:38:27] so going back to Spock revealing his,

[00:38:29] his subterfuge.

[00:38:30] Oh,

[00:38:30] hang on.

[00:38:31] I have,

[00:38:32] so the first American in space was actually Alan Shepard in May of

[00:38:37] 1961.

[00:38:38] So a little behind the Russians.

[00:38:40] So they,

[00:38:40] they had been to,

[00:38:42] they had been to space.

[00:38:43] Like you,

[00:38:43] it was,

[00:38:44] it was understood that you,

[00:38:45] you could go to space at that point.

[00:38:47] Correct.

[00:38:47] The newest possible.

[00:38:48] I think that's why Star Trek exists.

[00:38:50] I mean,

[00:38:51] I,

[00:38:51] I would,

[00:38:51] I would imagine.

[00:38:53] Although I,

[00:38:53] I gotta say,

[00:38:54] I know the space race,

[00:38:55] the space show.

[00:38:55] It makes sense.

[00:38:56] You got,

[00:38:56] let's,

[00:38:57] let's,

[00:38:57] we're going to put you in a frame of mind though.

[00:38:59] This Alan Shepard guy,

[00:39:01] a balls of feel,

[00:39:03] this man.

[00:39:04] So the second man ever to go into space gets launched up in a rocket,

[00:39:08] a literal ball of fire under his ass.

[00:39:11] Goes into space,

[00:39:12] goes into space for 15 minutes and comes back safe.

[00:39:18] Yeah.

[00:39:19] I mean,

[00:39:20] there is no,

[00:39:22] they went up there with the understanding.

[00:39:24] They hope that they'd come back,

[00:39:25] but they didn't assume that they would.

[00:39:27] And then imagine the guys that landed on the moon.

[00:39:31] That is a thing that blows my mind.

[00:39:33] Like just the,

[00:39:34] the concept of being in space like that.

[00:39:37] That is,

[00:39:38] I don't want to pay a billionaire to do it though.

[00:39:40] I don't know why.

[00:39:41] I just,

[00:39:41] I don't want to pay a billionaire to take me into space.

[00:39:43] It feels unsafe.

[00:39:45] I mean,

[00:39:45] they couldn't even be brought to the Titanic.

[00:39:47] Oh,

[00:39:48] Oh,

[00:39:49] the Titanic joke for y'all.

[00:39:50] To beware.

[00:39:51] They were more,

[00:39:52] to,

[00:39:52] to be fair,

[00:39:53] not where,

[00:39:53] although to beware,

[00:39:54] um,

[00:39:55] to beware and fair.

[00:39:57] They were warned.

[00:39:58] They were,

[00:39:59] they were repeatedly fascinating story.

[00:40:02] But anyway,

[00:40:03] um,

[00:40:04] it's just sad.

[00:40:05] It's just sad.

[00:40:06] Oh,

[00:40:06] it's all very sad.

[00:40:07] The saddest one was the kid who didn't want to go on it.

[00:40:10] Sad story.

[00:40:11] The look on bones,

[00:40:11] his face when,

[00:40:13] uh,

[00:40:13] when Spock reveals his subterfuge,

[00:40:14] his look of like,

[00:40:15] fuck,

[00:40:16] I,

[00:40:16] I don't know what to do here.

[00:40:18] It's literally like,

[00:40:19] I stood up for you.

[00:40:21] Yeah.

[00:40:22] And my,

[00:40:22] my favorite part of my friend party was like,

[00:40:24] do I,

[00:40:24] do I,

[00:40:25] do I banish you to quarters?

[00:40:26] What do I do here?

[00:40:27] I don't know what to do here.

[00:40:28] Spock.

[00:40:28] Tell me what to do here.

[00:40:29] And my head,

[00:40:30] the wheels are cranking.

[00:40:31] He's like,

[00:40:31] happening in his face.

[00:40:32] He's like,

[00:40:33] wait,

[00:40:33] does that mean I'm a command?

[00:40:34] I don't want to be command.

[00:40:35] I'm a doctor,

[00:40:35] not a captain.

[00:40:36] Right.

[00:40:37] Right.

[00:40:37] It's like the acting.

[00:40:38] It's just the,

[00:40:38] just the,

[00:40:39] like you could see him thinking like,

[00:40:41] we constantly praise DeForest Kelly,

[00:40:43] but that,

[00:40:43] that was just such a good.

[00:40:45] I praise,

[00:40:45] I praise DeForest Kelly.

[00:40:47] I praise DeForest Kelly because it seems like on every one of these scenes,

[00:40:51] he has a fundamental understanding of what's going on in Dr. McCoy's head.

[00:40:56] Right.

[00:40:57] Right.

[00:40:57] And communicates it.

[00:40:58] And it's the same thing with Spock,

[00:41:00] but it's different.

[00:41:00] But in,

[00:41:01] and just in that moment of him just being like,

[00:41:03] you can see him being like,

[00:41:04] I've never been here before.

[00:41:05] I don't know how to deal with this.

[00:41:07] Kirk.

[00:41:07] Kirk.

[00:41:07] Like you could just,

[00:41:08] he wants to call Kirk.

[00:41:09] Jim.

[00:41:11] Jim,

[00:41:12] I need your help.

[00:41:13] If he needs a spleen out,

[00:41:14] I'm your man.

[00:41:15] If it comes to captaining a ship,

[00:41:17] I,

[00:41:17] I would love to have seen that.

[00:41:19] Even if it was just a gag of McCoy being placed in temporary command of the

[00:41:23] enterprise and just being like,

[00:41:26] whoa,

[00:41:26] whoa,

[00:41:26] whoa,

[00:41:26] whoa,

[00:41:27] what do I do?

[00:41:29] Opinion for you.

[00:41:30] Would you prefer law and order Spock for you or law and order Trek for you?

[00:41:35] Trek for you.

[00:41:37] Because Spock for you requires context,

[00:41:39] right?

[00:41:40] I think that Spock needs a foil to be interesting.

[00:41:44] Fair,

[00:41:44] fair,

[00:41:45] fair.

[00:41:45] Cause I was like,

[00:41:46] it's like law and order.

[00:41:47] I'm,

[00:41:48] I'm immediately,

[00:41:49] I'm immediately picturing,

[00:41:50] uh,

[00:41:52] Spock and McCoy in the,

[00:41:53] in the role of like ice tea.

[00:41:55] And,

[00:41:56] um,

[00:41:57] what's his name?

[00:41:57] Munch.

[00:41:58] The character name is Munch.

[00:41:59] Munch.

[00:42:00] Yeah.

[00:42:00] I can see that.

[00:42:01] I am seeing them just take those two and swap them out with,

[00:42:05] uh,

[00:42:06] Spock and McCoy as partners.

[00:42:08] Oh,

[00:42:09] he,

[00:42:10] he always going to be like,

[00:42:11] Kurt,

[00:42:11] who's Kirk is Kirk is Kirk.

[00:42:13] Uh,

[00:42:14] Kirk is obviously stapler.

[00:42:15] I was going to say stabler,

[00:42:17] but then I was like,

[00:42:18] but he hasn't committed nearly enough crimes.

[00:42:19] He hasn't made you go.

[00:42:21] Is he allowed to get away with that nearly enough yet?

[00:42:24] Um,

[00:42:25] I would say anything nearly questionable enough.

[00:42:28] As far as the JJ,

[00:42:29] the JJ Abrams Kirk has,

[00:42:31] that is true.

[00:42:32] He,

[00:42:32] he's,

[00:42:33] he's on the edge as much as,

[00:42:34] as much as stabler is.

[00:42:35] See stabler for a guy who's,

[00:42:37] I know thinking about this,

[00:42:39] uh,

[00:42:39] is the fact that his name is stabler.

[00:42:41] Is that supposed to be ironic?

[00:42:42] Cause he's not very stable.

[00:42:43] Is that like,

[00:42:44] is that a misnomer?

[00:42:45] But what's it?

[00:42:46] What's Olivia's last name?

[00:42:48] Benson.

[00:42:48] Benson.

[00:42:49] Okay.

[00:42:49] Yeah.

[00:42:50] Well,

[00:42:50] I guess that's too clever for Dick Wolf.

[00:42:53] Hey,

[00:42:53] now I got my,

[00:42:58] you can,

[00:42:58] you can tell the point when like people start to not like cops because they

[00:43:02] started to like be really like saw,

[00:43:04] like soft spoken,

[00:43:06] like early season.

[00:43:07] Stabler would like,

[00:43:08] would like do borderline illegal shit to,

[00:43:11] to,

[00:43:11] to perps.

[00:43:12] And you're like,

[00:43:12] there's a point where cops stopped being allowed to do that on television.

[00:43:15] And you can tell because that show has been on the air for so long.

[00:43:18] Very funny.

[00:43:19] They do at least allude to the fact that he's gotten in trouble for his.

[00:43:23] They have.

[00:43:24] Yeah.

[00:43:24] Yeah.

[00:43:25] So also like there's,

[00:43:27] there's an episode where like the FBI guy helps him like torture information

[00:43:30] out of a guy.

[00:43:31] And it's like,

[00:43:32] this must've been,

[00:43:33] this must've been,

[00:43:34] uh,

[00:43:35] yeah,

[00:43:35] he's early thousands when that was okay.

[00:43:37] He's like,

[00:43:37] stand aside,

[00:43:38] rookie.

[00:43:39] Right.

[00:43:40] Let me show you how we do this internationally.

[00:43:42] Let me show you how we do this internationally.

[00:43:44] So in,

[00:43:45] in the original scripts,

[00:43:46] McCoy and Scotty have a scene where they explained to Kirk how they figured

[00:43:50] out the computer bake spot tampered with to lock,

[00:43:53] to lock the ship on course.

[00:43:54] They took perspiration readings on all the computer banks and said,

[00:43:58] Spock sweat has copper in it.

[00:44:01] Traces of copper were found.

[00:44:02] Uh,

[00:44:03] the scene wasn't shown,

[00:44:04] but that is essentially the,

[00:44:05] the catching spot green handed as it were,

[00:44:08] which I found particularly funny because I was right at one point.

[00:44:12] I forget which episode it's the one where Spock has red blood on his green

[00:44:16] cut.

[00:44:17] And I said,

[00:44:18] I don't know why they even made,

[00:44:19] went to the trouble of having Vulcan's blood be green.

[00:44:21] Cause it doesn't really make sense.

[00:44:22] But I was like,

[00:44:23] I don't know,

[00:44:24] maybe there's copper in their blood or something as just kind of like an

[00:44:26] aside.

[00:44:27] And I'm like,

[00:44:27] Jesus,

[00:44:28] I was right.

[00:44:29] Yeah.

[00:44:30] Yeah.

[00:44:30] You're definitely right.

[00:44:31] I didn't even pick up on that.

[00:44:32] And then here we come to the fast forward part of the episode.

[00:44:35] Spock presents his evidence on the screen.

[00:44:37] The enterprise arrives.

[00:44:38] Uh,

[00:44:39] captain Pike's enterprise arrives at Talos four in the year 2254 using

[00:44:43] footage from the original pilot,

[00:44:45] the cage.

[00:44:46] Here's the wild part to me.

[00:44:48] And I had to remind myself of this.

[00:44:50] You and I have the benefit of having seen the pilot.

[00:44:54] Yeah.

[00:44:54] I did have to remind myself of that,

[00:44:56] but also that,

[00:44:57] that end of itself led me to a criticism of like,

[00:45:01] I was like,

[00:45:01] on the one hand,

[00:45:02] pardon me kind of wishes I had watched this having not seen that because

[00:45:06] it definitely impacted my ability to not enjoy this,

[00:45:10] but like,

[00:45:11] certainly like,

[00:45:11] yes,

[00:45:11] I was very bored during the parts I had seen five weeks ago.

[00:45:14] You know what I mean?

[00:45:15] Like it's not far enough removed for me to like,

[00:45:18] not be like,

[00:45:18] Oh my God,

[00:45:19] this feels tedious.

[00:45:20] But that having been,

[00:45:22] been said,

[00:45:22] I did pick up on more stuff this time.

[00:45:25] It was nice to get there was like lots of stuff about that first

[00:45:27] episode that I now like picked up again on like a rewatch for lack of a

[00:45:33] better word.

[00:45:35] Yeah,

[00:45:35] it was,

[00:45:35] it was,

[00:45:36] it was very,

[00:45:36] I said,

[00:45:37] say,

[00:45:37] God,

[00:45:37] that pilot looked dull.

[00:45:39] It's just,

[00:45:40] it's just a note I have.

[00:45:41] Well,

[00:45:42] the funny thing is a lot of people,

[00:45:43] their first,

[00:45:44] their first impression might be that,

[00:45:46] um,

[00:45:47] the reason parts of the episode were put around is because to save

[00:45:52] time,

[00:45:52] actually the biggest reason for why some of the scenes were cut out of

[00:45:56] the pilot.

[00:45:57] And obviously they were editing for time.

[00:45:59] A lot of that footage was lost for you,

[00:46:01] presumed destroyed for years,

[00:46:03] years,

[00:46:04] years.

[00:46:05] Uh,

[00:46:05] in fact,

[00:46:06] I think it wasn't until the eighties that they found the complete

[00:46:09] original film reels for it.

[00:46:11] Gene Roddenberry owned a 16 millimeter black and white reel of it

[00:46:15] that he had personally.

[00:46:16] But as far as the original 35 millimeter color reel,

[00:46:19] uh,

[00:46:20] in its entirety,

[00:46:21] I don't think they add that it was eventually returned to Paramount so

[00:46:25] they could,

[00:46:25] you know,

[00:46:26] that's why,

[00:46:27] that's why they,

[00:46:28] they had to,

[00:46:28] they didn't just use this episode whole cloth.

[00:46:30] And although it's the pilot,

[00:46:31] I guess they wouldn't,

[00:46:32] but I guess that,

[00:46:33] I guess that's,

[00:46:34] yeah,

[00:46:34] that's why it's edited the way,

[00:46:35] the way it is partially at least.

[00:46:37] Um,

[00:46:38] but I have to remind myself too.

[00:46:40] And I had to put myself in the headspace of someone who was watching

[00:46:42] the show for the first time.

[00:46:43] And this would have been a wild episode.

[00:46:45] This looked like a,

[00:46:46] it was basically a miniature movie because it was two episodes that were

[00:46:50] shot as far as they were concerned.

[00:46:53] Um,

[00:46:54] my thing with that,

[00:46:54] but that pilot plays the first thing I was like,

[00:46:56] if I hadn't already seen this,

[00:46:58] my,

[00:46:58] my,

[00:46:58] my thoughts would be,

[00:46:59] this feels like it's a completely different show and I'm losing all

[00:47:02] this shit.

[00:47:03] I like about star Trek.

[00:47:04] I'm just like,

[00:47:05] this is so fucking boring.

[00:47:07] It's so boring.

[00:47:08] What I don't understand is that.

[00:47:10] Cause I,

[00:47:11] I had seen both before when I realized,

[00:47:13] I watched the pilot.

[00:47:14] I wasn't bored when I watched it,

[00:47:16] when I was watching this,

[00:47:18] I was bored as hell.

[00:47:19] I was so bored because it's,

[00:47:21] it's lacking all the color,

[00:47:23] all the personality.

[00:47:24] I will say that you could,

[00:47:26] I did notice this time how that doctor character is what became bones

[00:47:29] because it's effectively the same character.

[00:47:31] I thought it was strange that they included that scene in this sort of

[00:47:36] testimony.

[00:47:37] Cause it's not really pikes for man fatigue is not really relevant in the

[00:47:42] context of this.

[00:47:43] It is very much in the pilot.

[00:47:45] It's not relevant at all.

[00:47:47] In,

[00:47:47] in this episode.

[00:47:49] That scene maybe serves because they initially ignore it.

[00:47:52] Right.

[00:47:52] I think that scene serves to explain why they end up not ignoring it.

[00:47:56] Maybe.

[00:47:58] I don't know.

[00:47:58] I just mean in the context of the menagerie,

[00:48:01] it's not necessary because Pike being,

[00:48:05] you know,

[00:48:05] command,

[00:48:06] Pike's command fatigue is also very out of character for him in the context of

[00:48:10] the menagerie episode,

[00:48:11] because he's now this decorated,

[00:48:14] you know,

[00:48:14] very well-respected leader.

[00:48:17] And it just doesn't really serve any purpose in the context of the menagerie.

[00:48:22] The menagerie.

[00:48:23] The menagerie.

[00:48:24] That's it.

[00:48:24] It's filler.

[00:48:25] It's time filler.

[00:48:26] But yeah,

[00:48:26] sometimes they break the story up at very odd times.

[00:48:28] And I'm guessing that those are scenes that they didn't have.

[00:48:32] I'm guessing my,

[00:48:32] my thing with a lot of the,

[00:48:33] the,

[00:48:34] these,

[00:48:34] these pilot shots though is,

[00:48:35] well,

[00:48:35] now that I know the explanation for where the footage comes from,

[00:48:38] I get,

[00:48:38] I completely missed that.

[00:48:39] But for most of it,

[00:48:40] I just kept going,

[00:48:41] how did you know about the parts you weren't there for?

[00:48:44] Well,

[00:48:45] the Talosians did.

[00:48:46] The Talosians did.

[00:48:47] Yeah.

[00:48:47] But that's another thing.

[00:48:48] So if this footage is coming from Talos four,

[00:48:51] it would make sense that they might know about things that happened on the

[00:48:54] bridge per se.

[00:48:55] But again,

[00:48:56] the conversation,

[00:48:57] well,

[00:48:57] I guess they read Pike's mind though.

[00:48:58] So they,

[00:48:59] they would know.

[00:48:59] I suppose they read Pike's mind.

[00:49:00] Yeah.

[00:49:01] Fun fact though,

[00:49:01] Malachi Thorne,

[00:49:02] who plays Commodore Jose Mendez in this episode also provided the original voice of

[00:49:08] the keeper in the original pilot of the cage.

[00:49:11] Oh,

[00:49:12] interesting.

[00:49:12] So that,

[00:49:13] okay.

[00:49:13] Cause that was my question was there's a shot at the end of him talking that the footage

[00:49:18] has just clearly been ripped from the,

[00:49:20] from the original pilot.

[00:49:21] But I'm like,

[00:49:21] but it's original dialogue and it sounds just like him.

[00:49:25] Well,

[00:49:26] it gets better.

[00:49:27] So you and I have actually not seen the pilot as it was intended.

[00:49:32] And nobody who didn't see it,

[00:49:35] nobody,

[00:49:36] nobody will have,

[00:49:37] unless you saw the original broadcast of the menagerie.

[00:49:41] No,

[00:49:41] no,

[00:49:41] I'm sorry.

[00:49:42] I take that back.

[00:49:43] The original pilot.

[00:49:44] So I'll just read the note.

[00:49:46] It'll make sense.

[00:49:47] Then I'll stop rambling.

[00:49:48] Uh,

[00:49:48] since throne,

[00:49:49] I said Malachi throne,

[00:49:51] right?

[00:49:51] I think I said Thorne Malachi throne.

[00:49:53] Since throne played a second role in the menagerie as the Commodore,

[00:49:57] the keeper's voice was electronically processed to sound higher pitched.

[00:50:01] If the form and the color is not appealing,

[00:50:05] it can appear as any food you wish to visualize.

[00:50:10] If the form and the color is not appealing,

[00:50:14] it can appear as any food you wish to visualize.

[00:50:19] This modified voice would replace Malachi throne's original voice work in the

[00:50:23] remastered and new original versions of the cage that were released later,

[00:50:27] as well as this episode.

[00:50:30] Interesting.

[00:50:30] So it's not what the character originally sounded like.

[00:50:33] No,

[00:50:33] it originally was just Thrones voice,

[00:50:35] but in the menagerie,

[00:50:37] they did the vocal effects so that he could record new dialogue and it would

[00:50:41] sound the same.

[00:50:42] So that dialogue you're talking about in the end,

[00:50:44] that's why they did that.

[00:50:45] And so then retroactively,

[00:50:47] they went and they did that with that original pilot.

[00:50:50] Oh,

[00:50:51] to make sure that it wasn't consistent.

[00:50:53] Yeah.

[00:50:53] So it wasn't going to sound like the Commodore.

[00:50:56] But that's so interesting because that I,

[00:50:59] I appreciate that because I,

[00:51:01] I wreck,

[00:51:01] I know this character from that episode,

[00:51:02] but it had you not,

[00:51:03] that wouldn't,

[00:51:04] I guess,

[00:51:05] because they're expecting this is that,

[00:51:07] that pilot,

[00:51:08] that it's a bonus thing,

[00:51:09] I guess,

[00:51:10] maybe that they're like,

[00:51:11] Oh,

[00:51:11] people are going to go back and they're not going to experience it.

[00:51:13] They're going to experience it as more of an addendum,

[00:51:15] I guess maybe is how I would put it.

[00:51:16] Well,

[00:51:17] it was never intended to be released for mass consumption,

[00:51:19] although I'm pretty sure that Roddenberry wanted it to be obviously,

[00:51:22] because it was later in 1980,

[00:51:25] if I remember correctly.

[00:51:27] I will say I probably would have enjoyed it more.

[00:51:31] I like watching it the way we are because it's just easier on my Paramount

[00:51:34] plus account.

[00:51:35] Right.

[00:51:36] In terms of like context,

[00:51:38] it would have been Jordan said a similar thing of,

[00:51:41] of,

[00:51:41] of the terrifying movies where it would have been more,

[00:51:44] probably would have made this a better experience,

[00:51:46] a more interesting experience.

[00:51:47] How did I watch this first and that second?

[00:51:49] Because that would have provided context to this.

[00:51:51] And fair enough.

[00:51:52] Fair enough.

[00:51:54] Yeah.

[00:51:55] It's also still incredible.

[00:51:56] My note would have still been this pilot footage is incredibly dull.

[00:52:00] It looks dull.

[00:52:01] All of the actors have like no spirit.

[00:52:03] I don't know what they're going for,

[00:52:05] but they are like,

[00:52:06] again,

[00:52:07] again,

[00:52:07] cannot reiterate enough.

[00:52:08] I understand why I didn't make it serious.

[00:52:10] Well,

[00:52:10] and not only that.

[00:52:11] So at this point,

[00:52:12] we got to remember,

[00:52:12] like,

[00:52:12] so I said,

[00:52:13] when you start with the pilot,

[00:52:14] it's not super underwhelming because if you've never seen Star Trek

[00:52:17] before,

[00:52:18] you don't really have anything compared to once you've seen episodes like

[00:52:20] the man trap and the naked time and muds women,

[00:52:23] and you see these much more dynamic and colorful characters,

[00:52:28] this pilot is gray.

[00:52:30] It's just so dull.

[00:52:33] Like all of the,

[00:52:33] all of the costumes are dull looking like it.

[00:52:36] And if you're fair,

[00:52:37] it looks like some of them have been punched up a little bit,

[00:52:39] like with,

[00:52:40] with like lighting or color recoloring or something.

[00:52:42] Like they look a little brighter than they did when in the pilot,

[00:52:45] when we watched it,

[00:52:45] but it still looks like it's,

[00:52:47] I want to say bad,

[00:52:48] bad,

[00:52:49] bad feels mean,

[00:52:50] but it just doesn't,

[00:52:51] it's not interesting.

[00:52:52] Yeah.

[00:52:52] Cause like,

[00:52:53] again,

[00:52:53] I was watching this on TV.

[00:52:54] I'd be like,

[00:52:54] where's my,

[00:52:55] where's my captain Kirk.

[00:52:56] And I turn this off.

[00:52:58] It's funny.

[00:52:59] Cause my parents,

[00:53:00] particularly my father,

[00:53:01] when he was like,

[00:53:01] he described,

[00:53:02] uh,

[00:53:03] when next generation came about,

[00:53:05] they were both independently of one another,

[00:53:07] mind you,

[00:53:08] uh,

[00:53:08] they were both like,

[00:53:09] no,

[00:53:09] we want our star Trek.

[00:53:11] Well,

[00:53:12] the whole next generation will become probably,

[00:53:14] I would say the most beloved of the star Trek series,

[00:53:17] but.

[00:53:18] Not by me.

[00:53:20] I mean,

[00:53:20] as in the general sense.

[00:53:22] Yeah.

[00:53:23] I mean,

[00:53:24] ah,

[00:53:24] that's hard to say.

[00:53:25] And in terms of the zeitgeist,

[00:53:27] maybe.

[00:53:29] I mean,

[00:53:29] the zeitgeist.

[00:53:30] Kirk is so well known.

[00:53:32] Everyone can do it.

[00:53:33] Everyone has a Shatner impression.

[00:53:34] They pull out at a party,

[00:53:35] especially Shatner.

[00:53:37] Yes.

[00:53:38] Especially Shatner.

[00:53:38] I'm Captain Kirk.

[00:53:41] I'm Captain Kirk.

[00:53:44] Uh,

[00:53:45] it's still funny.

[00:53:47] This is going to have zero context for the viewers.

[00:53:49] Um,

[00:53:50] when we were recording the audio book,

[00:53:52] you unintentionally had me dying because when you were doing the,

[00:53:56] uh,

[00:53:56] wasn't a computer voice.

[00:53:58] I can't remember.

[00:53:59] Oh yeah.

[00:53:59] It was supposed to be a computer.

[00:54:01] Yeah.

[00:54:01] And you just lapsed into the thermions.

[00:54:05] I don't know that I was intentionally doing.

[00:54:06] I don't think you were.

[00:54:08] That's just what I was getting.

[00:54:09] I was just getting like,

[00:54:11] there was a,

[00:54:12] there was a point where,

[00:54:13] where,

[00:54:13] um,

[00:54:14] I was trying to say,

[00:54:15] Max was giving me virus was giving me shit for,

[00:54:18] for how I said doctor.

[00:54:19] And,

[00:54:20] uh,

[00:54:20] Jordan pointed out,

[00:54:22] you don't watch doctor who,

[00:54:23] so you're not going to appreciate this.

[00:54:25] Um,

[00:54:25] he pointed out that it's because of doctor who there's a thing in it called a

[00:54:28] Dalek.

[00:54:28] And that's how it pronounces doc,

[00:54:30] doc tour.

[00:54:31] Like,

[00:54:31] that's just how they pronounces it.

[00:54:33] It's like,

[00:54:33] that's why you're doing that.

[00:54:34] And I'm like,

[00:54:35] Oh my God,

[00:54:36] that's why it blew my mind.

[00:54:37] I was like,

[00:54:37] Oh,

[00:54:38] uh,

[00:54:38] the thing about when someone points or ask you not to do something that

[00:54:42] you're doing subconsciously,

[00:54:43] it's then all you can do.

[00:54:46] Cause you're ironically,

[00:54:47] you're trying not to do it.

[00:54:48] it's kind of like when I was given direction when I,

[00:54:51] cause we've,

[00:54:51] we've established I'm I,

[00:54:53] when I voice my doctor,

[00:54:56] I almost said his name,

[00:54:57] but,

[00:54:57] but when I voice the doctor character that I play,

[00:55:01] I'm just like,

[00:55:01] Oh,

[00:55:02] I'm just going Hugh Grant,

[00:55:03] especially based on the scene.

[00:55:04] Uh,

[00:55:05] and then if I am doing a voice,

[00:55:06] that's how I get there.

[00:55:07] I like,

[00:55:07] I'm like,

[00:55:07] I do an actor and that's why I said that.

[00:55:09] Cause I'm like,

[00:55:09] that's what that voice makes me think of.

[00:55:12] Like I heard how someone said once that everyone has a Christopher

[00:55:14] walking impression.

[00:55:15] Every guy on the planet can just bust out of Christopher

[00:55:17] walking impression.

[00:55:18] And I'm like,

[00:55:19] it's just a very,

[00:55:20] it's just a very distinct way of speaking.

[00:55:23] So yeah,

[00:55:24] just about everybody.

[00:55:25] One of these days.

[00:55:26] Now I just want to read Star Trek lines as Christopher.

[00:55:29] Well,

[00:55:31] fact,

[00:55:31] two,

[00:55:33] there's something on the wing.

[00:55:35] That's not Star Trek.

[00:55:37] Close enough.

[00:55:40] I'm Captain Kirk.

[00:55:42] I'm Captain Kirk.

[00:55:45] It's me.

[00:55:46] Mark.

[00:55:47] Punch it.

[00:55:48] The Warp Factor five.

[00:55:50] Captain Kirk.

[00:55:51] It's normally better than that.

[00:55:54] And nothing's worse than Christopher Walken singing in the live action

[00:55:57] jungle book.

[00:55:57] I'm sorry.

[00:55:58] Uh,

[00:55:59] uh,

[00:55:59] I will never forget that.

[00:56:01] We watched that movie in theaters and I will never forget the first time

[00:56:04] I saw that.

[00:56:05] I,

[00:56:05] I laughed.

[00:56:06] I laughed so hard.

[00:56:09] I just,

[00:56:09] I nearly cried.

[00:56:10] It was,

[00:56:10] I did,

[00:56:11] I did.

[00:56:11] I did one of these.

[00:56:12] I went,

[00:56:14] uh,

[00:56:16] do it.

[00:56:16] Do.

[00:56:17] Uh,

[00:56:17] want to be like you.

[00:56:19] I want to walk like you talk like you,

[00:56:22] you.

[00:56:22] It's you.

[00:56:23] You see,

[00:56:24] it's true.

[00:56:24] Sorry.

[00:56:26] You know what?

[00:56:26] He's such an easy person to,

[00:56:28] to impersonate.

[00:56:29] It's just,

[00:56:29] it's just so much fun.

[00:56:30] Back in 2267,

[00:56:32] the scene is interrupted by a message from Starfleet command,

[00:56:35] which reveals that the images they have been viewing are being transmitted

[00:56:38] directly from Talos four.

[00:56:41] Mendez is placed in command of the enterprise and Kirk is,

[00:56:45] they,

[00:56:46] they kind of allude to the fact that Kirk's in trouble,

[00:56:48] but I think under the circumstances,

[00:56:51] just it's,

[00:56:52] it seems very arbitrary because it's like he's in trouble because his ship

[00:56:56] received transmissions from Talos four,

[00:56:58] even though he gave no order,

[00:57:00] had no knowledge of it.

[00:57:02] but because he's the captain in the moment,

[00:57:05] it seems like an extreme reaction just to be like,

[00:57:07] and we're going to publicly execute you for this.

[00:57:10] But like,

[00:57:11] obviously retroactively you're like,

[00:57:13] Oh,

[00:57:13] okay.

[00:57:14] Yeah.

[00:57:14] This is the reason for that.

[00:57:16] But like,

[00:57:16] if it were actually Starfleet,

[00:57:18] you'd be like,

[00:57:19] this feels like a disproportionate reaction.

[00:57:21] Yeah.

[00:57:21] This,

[00:57:21] this feels very,

[00:57:22] this feels cling on.

[00:57:24] It does a tad bit.

[00:57:26] Yeah.

[00:57:26] Spock begs Kirk to see the rest of the transmission,

[00:57:29] which I do find it kind of clever where Spock is like,

[00:57:32] are you asking why?

[00:57:33] And because of the rules of the Federation,

[00:57:34] he is now allowed to present any evidence that he has.

[00:57:38] And I'm just like,

[00:57:38] you got played son.

[00:57:40] Right.

[00:57:41] But you're in a court.

[00:57:43] Well,

[00:57:43] but you're in a court.

[00:57:44] Marshall.

[00:57:45] Of course,

[00:57:45] Spock can present evidence.

[00:57:46] You don't have to ask why that's why you're there.

[00:57:48] Right.

[00:57:49] He's there to make his case as to why he shouldn't be put to death.

[00:57:52] That is,

[00:57:53] that is the point of said court.

[00:57:55] Marshall.

[00:57:56] Now it's time.

[00:57:59] For.

[00:58:01] An web break.

[00:58:03] Come with me to discover the transformative power of kindness and the joy it brings.

[00:58:10] Join me as we explore every Monday morning,

[00:58:12] simple yet profound ways to elevate your happiness.

[00:58:16] One gesture at a time.

[00:58:23] Oh,

[00:58:24] wow.

[00:58:24] Fantastic baby.

[00:58:33] Wow.

[00:58:34] I love that.

[00:58:36] Uh,

[00:58:37] I will buy or subscribe.

[00:58:42] So what was advertised?

[00:58:44] Spock's trial continues and the transmitted scene resumes very punctually.

[00:58:49] I might add,

[00:58:49] it just starts right back up again,

[00:58:51] right?

[00:58:51] Right back.

[00:58:52] Yeah.

[00:58:53] With,

[00:58:53] with Pike in 2254 in the cell with the transparent wall,

[00:58:56] uh,

[00:58:57] where we see most of the pilot episode play out as it did before.

[00:59:00] And you'll notice I'm skipping over this because if you want to go over what

[00:59:03] happened to the pilot,

[00:59:04] you can check out our first episode,

[00:59:06] sexy green pilots in outer space.

[00:59:07] Yeah.

[00:59:08] It's really funny.

[00:59:09] It's like,

[00:59:09] you mentioned that the green,

[00:59:10] the green slaves.

[00:59:13] And,

[00:59:13] and I,

[00:59:13] I guess just like,

[00:59:14] because that episode,

[00:59:15] I was really just probably,

[00:59:16] I was just doing things the way I do.

[00:59:17] I guess my brain just completely glossed over that part.

[00:59:21] Cause this time I was like,

[00:59:21] Oh,

[00:59:23] that's what he was taught.

[00:59:24] That's the green.

[00:59:24] Let's see.

[00:59:25] There's the green ladies,

[00:59:26] which incidentally Kirk being to some green ladies,

[00:59:29] I didn't make a note of that,

[00:59:30] but he may,

[00:59:30] when,

[00:59:34] notically attracted to the green,

[00:59:35] the green alien ladies,

[00:59:37] Kirk was like,

[00:59:37] yes,

[00:59:38] yes,

[00:59:38] they are.

[00:59:39] Kirk's there.

[00:59:40] And he's just like Fogel and super bad.

[00:59:42] I got a bonus.

[00:59:43] So again,

[00:59:44] we,

[00:59:44] we see footage from the pilot,

[00:59:46] which again,

[00:59:46] we've,

[00:59:48] I'm seriously,

[00:59:49] and it might be named this.

[00:59:51] I was for some reason,

[00:59:53] whenever I was thinking about us recording this episode,

[00:59:56] I keep coming back to this,

[00:59:58] the phrase,

[00:59:58] haven't we been here before?

[01:00:00] I'm seriously thinking that that's going to be the title of this episode.

[01:00:04] So obviously if it's not for all of you watching it,

[01:00:08] if it's not,

[01:00:09] then we came up with a better idea,

[01:00:10] but I just,

[01:00:11] that just feels right here.

[01:00:12] It really might,

[01:00:14] like a big thing beyond the fact that this easily could have been one

[01:00:17] part.

[01:00:18] It really could have.

[01:00:19] It involves Spock,

[01:00:22] like being utterly devoted to this man that he's willing to risk

[01:00:25] everything that we,

[01:00:27] in terms of the audience,

[01:00:29] theoretically,

[01:00:30] I've never met before.

[01:00:32] That,

[01:00:32] and that's a hard film.

[01:00:33] See,

[01:00:34] it's ironic because if you've seen the pilot,

[01:00:36] it actually makes more sense to you.

[01:00:38] A little bit,

[01:00:39] but him and,

[01:00:39] him and,

[01:00:39] him and,

[01:00:40] because,

[01:00:41] because Spock is still,

[01:00:43] Spock is such a different character,

[01:00:44] even as he's being presented in that footage in this episode,

[01:00:47] they don't,

[01:00:48] they don't really,

[01:00:48] nothing in the,

[01:00:49] in that pilot footage would give you the impression that he's willing to

[01:00:52] like blow up his career over this.

[01:00:54] In fact,

[01:00:54] quite the opposite.

[01:00:56] Right.

[01:00:57] Yeah.

[01:00:57] It's just a science officer.

[01:00:59] Like why,

[01:01:00] why do,

[01:01:00] like there's no justification really for it.

[01:01:03] Yeah.

[01:01:03] We're used to,

[01:01:04] we're used to Spock being like,

[01:01:06] yeah,

[01:01:06] we should totally maroon that guy on an abandoned planet.

[01:01:09] We could absolutely do that.

[01:01:10] Or,

[01:01:11] you know what?

[01:01:12] We probably need to leave those dudes down to freeze to death on that planet.

[01:01:16] That's the thing we should totally do.

[01:01:19] Right.

[01:01:20] But Spock,

[01:01:20] Spock does like ass.

[01:01:22] We established that in,

[01:01:24] uh,

[01:01:25] the previous episode.

[01:01:26] That is true.

[01:01:27] He does look like a firm hindquarters.

[01:01:29] An enigma is Spock.

[01:01:31] Uh,

[01:01:31] pointy ears and shapely rears,

[01:01:33] as they said in the big bang theory.

[01:01:35] Yep.

[01:01:35] Yep.

[01:01:35] My guy,

[01:01:36] my guy likes a,

[01:01:37] uh,

[01:01:38] well,

[01:01:38] you know,

[01:01:39] he likes a good bottom.

[01:01:40] It's only logical.

[01:01:42] It's only logical.

[01:01:43] Well,

[01:01:43] it is the maximus muscle.

[01:01:45] Um,

[01:01:46] no,

[01:01:46] I,

[01:01:46] I,

[01:01:47] I was re annoyed by the fact they're still obsessed with the damn blue leaves.

[01:01:52] They're just leaves guys.

[01:01:53] They're just leaves.

[01:01:54] They're just leaves.

[01:01:56] Like,

[01:01:56] I mean,

[01:01:57] they're just,

[01:01:57] it just leaves.

[01:01:58] It's just a bag floating in the wind guys.

[01:02:01] Come on.

[01:02:02] You're,

[01:02:02] you know,

[01:02:02] any idea how complicated your circulatory system is?

[01:02:07] Family guy reference for you.

[01:02:08] Oh yeah.

[01:02:09] Yeah.

[01:02:09] No,

[01:02:10] I got,

[01:02:11] I got it.

[01:02:12] I understood that.

[01:02:13] It's blue leaves.

[01:02:14] I understood that reference.

[01:02:15] They're just blue leaves guys.

[01:02:17] That's it.

[01:02:18] It's all.

[01:02:19] Borophyll more like Borophyll.

[01:02:21] Also,

[01:02:22] this is going to be my opportunity to make fun of all this stuff that happened.

[01:02:24] Those,

[01:02:25] those landing party outfits.

[01:02:26] They're still stupid looking.

[01:02:28] They're still bad.

[01:02:29] Maybe it was chilly down there.

[01:02:31] Maybe.

[01:02:32] My thing is how they like,

[01:02:33] they have these consistent uniforms with the light,

[01:02:35] the little fringe of all the,

[01:02:37] all of all their colors.

[01:02:38] So you can still identify them,

[01:02:39] but they still look bad.

[01:02:40] Like I get why they ditch these.

[01:02:42] Well,

[01:02:42] it just,

[01:02:43] it just really kind of doesn't make that much sense.

[01:02:45] Like if they're made out of Kevlar,

[01:02:47] sure.

[01:02:47] But I don't think they're made out of Kevlar.

[01:02:49] I,

[01:02:50] yeah,

[01:02:50] I don't,

[01:02:51] I don't really know.

[01:02:51] I mean,

[01:02:52] maybe that's a tactical thing.

[01:02:53] Maybe.

[01:02:54] Cause they do kind of have a tactical vibe to them.

[01:02:56] I honestly don't know.

[01:02:57] And you know what?

[01:02:58] There,

[01:02:58] there,

[01:02:58] there might be something to that because there's a,

[01:03:00] um,

[01:03:01] in Star Trek enterprise,

[01:03:02] I believe in C it's either season three or four.

[01:03:05] Uh,

[01:03:05] the enterprise incorporates a crew of Marines that are just straight up

[01:03:09] military.

[01:03:10] So maybe,

[01:03:11] and the reason they did that,

[01:03:12] and initially the enterprise goes out without very much weaponry at all,

[01:03:15] but as they encounter more threats,

[01:03:17] naming the Klingons and the Zindi,

[01:03:19] if I remember correctly,

[01:03:21] um,

[01:03:21] they completely,

[01:03:22] they get a complete retrofit and the enterprise essentially becomes a

[01:03:26] warship at that point.

[01:03:28] And part of that is they now have,

[01:03:30] you know,

[01:03:30] like soldiers,

[01:03:31] like legit soldiers on board,

[01:03:32] not combat trained people.

[01:03:34] I mean,

[01:03:35] soldiers.

[01:03:35] So as the years go by as Starfleet evolves,

[01:03:40] there's probably just more tactical gear integrated into just general use.

[01:03:45] I would think.

[01:03:46] Maybe,

[01:03:46] maybe.

[01:03:46] I mean,

[01:03:47] I,

[01:03:47] yeah,

[01:03:48] I thought I'm going to choose to believe it because otherwise they're just

[01:03:50] dumb looking outfits.

[01:03:51] Right.

[01:03:52] So maybe that's just a last vestige.

[01:03:55] Yeah.

[01:03:56] Maybe that's just the last vestige of the vestige of the space Marines.

[01:03:59] I don't know.

[01:04:00] Maybe,

[01:04:00] maybe back in the year 2266,

[01:04:03] after we watched the pilot rerun,

[01:04:05] that wasn't actually a rerun,

[01:04:07] uh,

[01:04:07] but it was for us and for you.

[01:04:09] It feels like a rerun.

[01:04:10] It feels like a rerun to us.

[01:04:12] Uh,

[01:04:12] the transmission ends as the enterprise arrives at Talos four.

[01:04:15] Commodore Mendes suddenly fades away and the keeper appears on the

[01:04:19] viewing screen.

[01:04:20] Uh,

[01:04:20] for those of you who haven't put it together yet,

[01:04:22] uh,

[01:04:22] the keeper is the,

[01:04:23] the one with the big head,

[01:04:25] the big headed alien.

[01:04:26] Captain big head.

[01:04:27] Captain big head.

[01:04:28] Yes.

[01:04:28] He was affection.

[01:04:29] Also,

[01:04:29] I believe we are at this point,

[01:04:30] like well deep into the second episode.

[01:04:32] And we didn't,

[01:04:33] we didn't even mention the fact that we,

[01:04:34] we,

[01:04:34] we finished the episode,

[01:04:36] like the first episode,

[01:04:37] like 20 minutes ago.

[01:04:39] Well,

[01:04:39] that's what I mean.

[01:04:40] They just run together.

[01:04:41] So I,

[01:04:42] this was definitely filler.

[01:04:43] Like this was made to fill two television.

[01:04:46] The first half of the first,

[01:04:48] the first half,

[01:04:48] the first part is really good stuff.

[01:04:51] And then,

[01:04:51] yeah,

[01:04:51] as soon as I was like,

[01:04:52] Oh,

[01:04:53] this isn't as like,

[01:04:54] like when you were like,

[01:04:54] Oh,

[01:04:54] you're,

[01:04:55] we're not going to have much to say.

[01:04:56] I was like,

[01:04:57] what do you mean?

[01:04:57] And then the pilot kicked in.

[01:04:59] I was like,

[01:04:59] yeah,

[01:05:00] okay.

[01:05:00] Yeah.

[01:05:00] I see exactly what he means.

[01:05:01] Anyway,

[01:05:02] the keeper appears on the viewing screen informing Kirk that Mendez's presence was an illusion.

[01:05:07] The court martial was a ploy to buy time to bring Pike back to Talos four,

[01:05:11] where if willing,

[01:05:12] he would be able to enjoy the illusion of a normal life.

[01:05:15] A message from Commodore Mendez,

[01:05:17] the real one,

[01:05:18] then advises that Starfleet has waived the prohibition against contact with the planet for this one occasion,

[01:05:24] and that Kirk is free to proceed as he thinks best.

[01:05:27] Pike is transported to the planet,

[01:05:29] and the rejuvenated Pike and Vena are seen on the viewing screen,

[01:05:33] returning with the Talosians to the underground complex.

[01:05:35] The keeper appears one last time to wish Kirk well.

[01:05:39] This is the one time,

[01:05:41] well,

[01:05:41] it's not the one time.

[01:05:41] This is one of the times where if you've seen the pilot before,

[01:05:44] this scene is completely ruined for you because admittedly,

[01:05:48] through some very clever editing,

[01:05:50] the ending of the original pilot is changed as far as Captain Kirk is concerned,

[01:05:54] because in the original pilot,

[01:05:56] the keeper tells Pike that he will return Vena's illusion of beauty and more,

[01:06:01] knowing that they've also created an illusion of Pike,

[01:06:05] who will serve as a companion for her in her,

[01:06:07] you know,

[01:06:08] dream illusion thing.

[01:06:09] But when we see the images,

[01:06:11] the images that we see on the screen only show the keeper giving back Vena her illusion of beauty.

[01:06:16] They don't kill Pike,

[01:06:18] and the reason they do that is because they take that shot of the Pike illusion and Vena going back underground,

[01:06:25] showing that as Pike,

[01:06:27] which makes no sense because Pike has only just now left the room,

[01:06:30] and as heavy as that damn chair is,

[01:06:32] Spock's probably at least a few minutes away from the transporter room,

[01:06:35] but this is somewhat instantaneous.

[01:06:38] But again,

[01:06:39] if you had never seen the pilot before,

[01:06:41] you're just like,

[01:06:42] oh,

[01:06:43] cool,

[01:06:43] except the fact that it's not actually Pike,

[01:06:45] though,

[01:06:46] it's just an illusion in his own mind.

[01:06:48] You know,

[01:06:49] my thing was like,

[01:06:50] so they're like,

[01:06:51] oh,

[01:06:51] no,

[01:06:51] you can't come,

[01:06:52] you can't come have endless holographic sex with the girl who's pretending she's hot.

[01:06:58] Oh,

[01:06:58] that's so mean.

[01:07:00] You can only do it if you're an invalid.

[01:07:01] That seems to be the lesson here.

[01:07:03] You can't,

[01:07:04] you can't do it.

[01:07:05] So though,

[01:07:06] again,

[01:07:07] they finally listened to me,

[01:07:08] though.

[01:07:09] I don't,

[01:07:09] it makes no sense that Talos IV is quarantined,

[01:07:12] because here's the thing.

[01:07:14] If you have somebody that's,

[01:07:15] you know,

[01:07:16] completely disabled,

[01:07:17] like Captain Pike,

[01:07:18] okay,

[01:07:19] they're trying to repopulate a planet.

[01:07:21] Yes?

[01:07:22] Right.

[01:07:23] Yeah,

[01:07:23] yeah.

[01:07:24] So

[01:07:26] just because somebody's disabled doesn't mean they can't reproduce,

[01:07:29] especially with help in the 23rd century.

[01:07:33] Like,

[01:07:33] if you've got magic reality warping powers,

[01:07:36] that makes them not a cripple.

[01:07:38] Well,

[01:07:39] I mean,

[01:07:39] even so,

[01:07:39] like,

[01:07:40] let's say,

[01:07:40] obviously they can't make Pike not disabled.

[01:07:43] They can't.

[01:07:43] Probably offensive.

[01:07:45] That's the 60s.

[01:07:48] Um,

[01:07:49] but my point being is,

[01:07:51] okay,

[01:07:51] so they,

[01:07:52] they want to,

[01:07:52] and it's kind of implied that Pike isn't that much older than Kirk.

[01:07:56] Like he,

[01:07:57] he's older,

[01:07:57] obviously,

[01:07:58] but he's,

[01:07:58] they kind of make it where they make it seem that Kirk,

[01:08:02] while he respects Pike,

[01:08:03] they're essentially peers in a way.

[01:08:06] Yeah.

[01:08:06] Like Pike is obviously,

[01:08:08] it's not like what it is in the,

[01:08:09] the Chris Pine movie where he's very definitely older than him.

[01:08:12] And like,

[01:08:13] correct.

[01:08:13] Well,

[01:08:14] for one thing,

[01:08:14] Pike is still a captain.

[01:08:16] He's still that rank of captain.

[01:08:18] That,

[01:08:18] that,

[01:08:18] those movies imply that Pike is way more of a character than the show,

[01:08:22] than the,

[01:08:22] than he is,

[01:08:23] at least as far as the show is concerned.

[01:08:25] Compared to this.

[01:08:26] Yeah.

[01:08:26] But again,

[01:08:26] with strange new worlds being a thing,

[01:08:28] because Pike is very much the star of that show.

[01:08:30] True.

[01:08:30] Even though Kirk,

[01:08:31] Kirk is there in the later seasons.

[01:08:34] You know,

[01:08:35] Pike is still very much the,

[01:08:37] he's the captain of strange new worlds,

[01:08:39] but I appreciated the editing because as,

[01:08:42] as a,

[01:08:43] as an editor myself,

[01:08:44] I guess imagine the glee on his face being like,

[01:08:47] I'm fooling all you people.

[01:08:49] Well,

[01:08:49] you're,

[01:08:50] it does.

[01:08:51] Yeah,

[01:08:51] you're right.

[01:08:52] I guess there was an element of me being like,

[01:08:53] yeah,

[01:08:53] that's clearly just footage from the pilot,

[01:08:55] but I said the same thing about,

[01:08:56] about the,

[01:08:57] yeah,

[01:08:57] the telosians at the end where,

[01:08:59] um,

[01:09:00] where it's like,

[01:09:01] that's just footage from the pilot.

[01:09:02] They've reconstituted to change the ending.

[01:09:05] Yeah.

[01:09:05] But fun fact.

[01:09:06] So this is,

[01:09:07] this is vitally important.

[01:09:08] How editing is vitally important.

[01:09:10] I wonder,

[01:09:10] Justin,

[01:09:11] have you seen a film called kingdom of heaven?

[01:09:14] I am familiar with that.

[01:09:15] That's that's,

[01:09:16] I feel like that's a Jesus.

[01:09:17] They're not a Jesus movie,

[01:09:18] but it's about the crusades,

[01:09:19] right?

[01:09:19] Yeah.

[01:09:19] Yeah.

[01:09:20] Jerusalem.

[01:09:20] The city.

[01:09:21] I am from familiar with it.

[01:09:23] I don't think I've ever seen it.

[01:09:25] Okay.

[01:09:26] Here's the funny thing.

[01:09:27] So when,

[01:09:28] when it came out,

[01:09:30] I liked it.

[01:09:31] Um,

[01:09:31] it was by no means my favorite movie of all time,

[01:09:33] but I liked it.

[01:09:34] Um,

[01:09:35] and then just,

[01:09:36] just through sheer happenstance,

[01:09:37] I,

[01:09:37] I got a hankering to watch it and I saw that it was for sale on DVD,

[01:09:41] but I saw it was the director's cut.

[01:09:42] And I'm like,

[01:09:43] I'm a movie nerd.

[01:09:44] I'd like to see the behind the scenes crap.

[01:09:46] And you know,

[01:09:47] director's cuts are usually fun.

[01:09:48] What I didn't realize is that the director's cut of kingdom of heaven,

[01:09:52] first of all,

[01:09:53] is almost four hours long.

[01:09:54] And that's,

[01:09:55] and I don't mean in a bad way.

[01:09:56] I love it.

[01:09:57] It's,

[01:09:57] it's great.

[01:09:58] The reason it's almost four hours long is you understand how much that movie was edited down for the theatrical release.

[01:10:05] Dude,

[01:10:06] dude,

[01:10:07] there are scenes that are in both movies,

[01:10:09] but because of how it is edited differently,

[01:10:12] have completely different contexts.

[01:10:14] Like there's a scene where one of the villains,

[01:10:17] right out,

[01:10:17] right now,

[01:10:18] the chatillon is in prison and he's talking to the other villain,

[01:10:22] Guy de Luzignon.

[01:10:23] And in the movie,

[01:10:24] in both movies,

[01:10:26] spoiler alert,

[01:10:26] but the movie came out in what?

[01:10:29] 2007 or so.

[01:10:30] Anyway,

[01:10:31] it's been out for a minute,

[01:10:33] maybe 2008.

[01:10:33] But anyway,

[01:10:34] in both movies,

[01:10:35] there's a plot where they try to assassinate Bailey and the lead character.

[01:10:39] But what you don't know,

[01:10:40] they eliminate an entire character between the director,

[01:10:44] the director's cut and the theatrical cut.

[01:10:46] Now this character is mentioned in the theatrical cut,

[01:10:49] but you don't see him.

[01:10:51] It's Sibylla's son,

[01:10:52] who is the heir to the throne of the kingdom of Jerusalem.

[01:10:55] Now in the director's cut,

[01:10:57] they go in again,

[01:10:59] in both movies,

[01:11:00] they establish that King Baldwin is a leopard and he eventually dies.

[01:11:05] His nephew.

[01:11:07] So his sister's son in the director's cut also gets diagnosed with leprosy.

[01:11:12] And there's an entire subplot about Sibylla mercy,

[01:11:16] killing her son.

[01:11:17] But in doing so,

[01:11:19] Guy de Lusignan takes the crown of Jerusalem.

[01:11:22] And in this scene,

[01:11:25] Renaud de Châtillon asks Guy,

[01:11:27] the boy is in heaven as a question.

[01:11:29] In the theatrical cut,

[01:11:31] they make it seem like he's talking about Balian.

[01:11:33] He's actually talking about the queen's son.

[01:11:35] Interesting.

[01:11:36] And that's,

[01:11:37] that's only a,

[01:11:38] that's only a little bit,

[01:11:40] man.

[01:11:40] The director's cut of kingdom of heaven is one of my favorite movies of all time.

[01:11:43] The theatrical cut is okay.

[01:11:45] Interesting.

[01:11:45] That's,

[01:11:46] I can't,

[01:11:46] I'm drawing a blank right now,

[01:11:48] but that's happened to me before.

[01:11:48] I generally don't like director's cuts,

[01:11:50] but occasionally there's a.

[01:11:52] Occasionally.

[01:11:53] Cause like I,

[01:11:53] I abhor the Steiner cut.

[01:11:55] I know I said it.

[01:11:57] I'm not a fan of Steiner cut.

[01:11:58] I,

[01:11:58] I watched the,

[01:11:59] um,

[01:12:00] are you,

[01:12:01] are you a fan of the Halloween movies?

[01:12:04] Uh,

[01:12:04] yes.

[01:12:04] Some of them,

[01:12:05] some of them.

[01:12:07] It depends.

[01:12:08] I,

[01:12:08] I,

[01:12:09] I watched all of them last week,

[01:12:10] all 13,

[01:12:11] but the,

[01:12:12] the Rob zombie cut,

[01:12:13] Rob zombie remake.

[01:12:14] The first one or the second one?

[01:12:16] First one.

[01:12:17] First one's quite good.

[01:12:19] I like the first one.

[01:12:21] The first one.

[01:12:22] I enjoy how it,

[01:12:22] how it goes into Michael Myers psychology and all that stuff.

[01:12:26] But have you seen the,

[01:12:27] the director's cut?

[01:12:28] I don't think so.

[01:12:30] Don't watch the director's cut because,

[01:12:33] um,

[01:12:34] it,

[01:12:34] it,

[01:12:35] it,

[01:12:35] Ooh,

[01:12:35] this is a PG show.

[01:12:36] So we're going to keep it PG,

[01:12:37] but how Michael Myers escaped is a completely different scene in both

[01:12:41] versions.

[01:12:41] So if you've seen the theatrical cut,

[01:12:43] it's during a prison transfer,

[01:12:45] he escapes during a prison transfer.

[01:12:46] And so there's a line in the director's cut.

[01:12:49] How do I do this?

[01:12:50] PG,

[01:12:51] PG way.

[01:12:52] He escapes while a guard and his cousin victimize a woman in his,

[01:12:58] in,

[01:12:58] in a really graphic way.

[01:13:00] Yeah.

[01:13:00] I have,

[01:13:00] I have not seen the director's cut.

[01:13:02] Yeah.

[01:13:03] And I get the sense,

[01:13:03] the reason I don't care for the second one is to me,

[01:13:06] it seems like after the first one was a huge success,

[01:13:09] they kind of gave him more free reign in,

[01:13:12] in,

[01:13:13] in the editing and writer's room.

[01:13:14] And I found the second one to just be a bit gratuitous.

[01:13:19] A little bit.

[01:13:20] But the,

[01:13:20] the thing with that,

[01:13:21] that scene is there's a line later on in the movie where,

[01:13:26] um,

[01:13:27] Loomis is giving,

[01:13:28] which I'm sure you remember where Loomis is giving the,

[01:13:30] the,

[01:13:31] the warden shit for letting Michael escape.

[01:13:33] I'd be in the words.

[01:13:34] Like,

[01:13:34] how dare you imply that my security is so bad.

[01:13:37] You think my security is so bad.

[01:13:38] And it's like in the theatrical cut,

[01:13:41] it's like five guys who are transferring him to another prison.

[01:13:44] So it's like,

[01:13:45] it's believable that like,

[01:13:46] okay,

[01:13:47] yeah,

[01:13:47] you'd be a little shocked that he managed to get away.

[01:13:49] Whereas in the theatrical cut,

[01:13:50] he,

[01:13:51] he kills these two guys while,

[01:13:53] while they're victimizing a woman.

[01:13:54] So it's like,

[01:13:55] yeah,

[01:13:55] your security is shit.

[01:13:56] They opened the door and left it open.

[01:13:58] So like,

[01:13:59] yeah,

[01:13:59] your security is absolute shit.

[01:14:00] This line now doesn't make any sense.

[01:14:02] Right.

[01:14:03] Incoherent.

[01:14:03] And it's a disgusting scene anyway,

[01:14:05] but yeah,

[01:14:06] that's why I don't care for the,

[01:14:07] but no editing,

[01:14:08] editing is important.

[01:14:08] Kids.

[01:14:09] And those,

[01:14:09] those three examples should illustrate that.

[01:14:12] You can change the entire tone with,

[01:14:14] uh,

[01:14:14] yeah.

[01:14:15] I love single line trailers.

[01:14:17] I took,

[01:14:18] um,

[01:14:18] I took it when I,

[01:14:18] whenever I do our videos,

[01:14:20] I like to put clips from trailers and just to tell people what they're

[01:14:23] watching.

[01:14:23] When I did the Michael Myers video,

[01:14:25] I put clips from cat in the hat,

[01:14:27] but if it were a horror movie.

[01:14:29] Yeah.

[01:14:29] I saw that.

[01:14:30] Yeah.

[01:14:31] I love shit like that.

[01:14:32] Like you're right.

[01:14:32] Editing can have such an impact.

[01:14:34] It can change the entire tone of a thing,

[01:14:36] which I actually kind of wanted to,

[01:14:38] um,

[01:14:40] there's a gag I wanted to do and I completely forgot it,

[01:14:42] but basically it's,

[01:14:44] it was one horror movie where Mac virus and I were kind of having fun with

[01:14:48] the thing.

[01:14:49] Like if you put yak any sacks over this,

[01:14:51] it turns into a comedy.

[01:14:53] Yeah.

[01:14:53] Yeah,

[01:14:54] absolutely.

[01:14:55] Like there's,

[01:14:55] there's a really great YouTube channel called,

[01:14:57] uh,

[01:14:57] I subscribe to called editing is everything where they take,

[01:15:01] they take a movie or a trailer and cut it into like a horror movie or

[01:15:05] whimsical movie or like,

[01:15:06] I think they did friendly movie.

[01:15:08] I think they did one where Titanic was a horror movie.

[01:15:11] Yeah.

[01:15:12] Yeah.

[01:15:12] There's,

[01:15:12] I've seen one where it's,

[01:15:13] um,

[01:15:14] someone cut a trailer where it was,

[01:15:15] they cut a trailer for a sequel and the,

[01:15:18] and it was,

[01:15:18] it made it,

[01:15:19] it made it look coherent.

[01:15:20] And the plot,

[01:15:21] the plot looked like it was,

[01:15:23] um,

[01:15:23] Jack,

[01:15:24] it turns out that Jack has been cryogenically frozen for it since

[01:15:27] then.

[01:15:28] And they find him and he accidentally gets on thought and he's running

[01:15:31] around modern day,

[01:15:32] like New York and they have to chase after him so they can use clips

[01:15:35] from,

[01:15:35] from,

[01:15:36] uh,

[01:15:36] catch me if you can,

[01:15:37] but it's just them trying to end him and him.

[01:15:39] Yeah.

[01:15:39] It's him like reacting to like the modern day.

[01:15:42] It's this new,

[01:15:43] but it was really good.

[01:15:44] It was really well edited.

[01:15:45] That's phenomenal.

[01:15:47] Our red shirt tally is still at two.

[01:15:49] I mean,

[01:15:50] to be fair,

[01:15:50] our,

[01:15:51] our enterprise bits were relatively drama free.

[01:15:54] I think this episode was relatively drama free for,

[01:15:56] for our main crew.

[01:15:57] I think.

[01:15:58] Um,

[01:15:58] yeah,

[01:15:59] yeah.

[01:15:59] It pretty much was Spock.

[01:16:00] Spock was the drama.

[01:16:02] Yeah.

[01:16:02] Spock was the drama.

[01:16:04] See,

[01:16:04] I kind of,

[01:16:05] I kind of want that to be the title where it's Spock is the drama.

[01:16:08] As much as I love,

[01:16:09] as much as I love.

[01:16:09] We'll workshop it.

[01:16:10] We'll workshop it.

[01:16:12] But my only real ending note to end it on is just that the ending of

[01:16:15] this undercuts the ending of that pilot episode by being like,

[01:16:19] nah,

[01:16:19] he's good.

[01:16:20] He's good.

[01:16:21] He just had to,

[01:16:21] he just had to set himself on fire.

[01:16:23] Your life.

[01:16:24] Like humans are okay with activity.

[01:16:26] So long as their life sucks sufficiently.

[01:16:29] Right.

[01:16:29] Enough that they're okay with,

[01:16:31] with being in captivity and,

[01:16:33] and living an awesome life in captivity.

[01:16:35] Which,

[01:16:35] and actually there of all things,

[01:16:37] there's a Batman beyond episode that kind of plays with this idea,

[01:16:40] but with teenagers,

[01:16:40] not old people where tell it,

[01:16:42] what is tell us we're going to become the tire,

[01:16:44] the retirement home of the Federation.

[01:16:46] I mean,

[01:16:47] look,

[01:16:48] they want,

[01:16:49] they want people to experiment on.

[01:16:51] They need a place to put the,

[01:16:53] their invalids where they can,

[01:16:54] they can not have to think about them and feel guilt-free.

[01:16:57] That feels like a win-win for everybody.

[01:16:59] You know what?

[01:17:00] And I just remembered Vena's line that really stuck out to me in,

[01:17:05] in the pilot.

[01:17:06] And you're right.

[01:17:07] This episode completely undercuts that sentiment.

[01:17:10] 100%.

[01:17:11] Because I was,

[01:17:12] I was connecting the dots with the Batman,

[01:17:13] the Batman beyond episode is there's a villain call.

[01:17:16] I think,

[01:17:16] yeah,

[01:17:16] it's spellbinder.

[01:17:17] And it's in a later episode where he basically develops this chamber that

[01:17:22] people can plug into.

[01:17:23] And it's basically like real life virtual reality.

[01:17:27] Where as far as it's not virtual reality,

[01:17:28] as far as you're concerned,

[01:17:30] it's real.

[01:17:30] It's actually happening.

[01:17:32] You have all the sensations and all that.

[01:17:33] Yeah.

[01:17:34] Basically.

[01:17:34] Yeah.

[01:17:34] It's the matrix.

[01:17:35] But the thing is he makes them pay for it.

[01:17:37] So every once in a while he pulls them out and then they have to go like

[01:17:40] steal shit or,

[01:17:42] you know,

[01:17:43] diabolical.

[01:17:43] It's a,

[01:17:44] it's a dark episode,

[01:17:45] but it's a really good episode.

[01:17:47] I've always said when it comes to that or like,

[01:17:50] when they're like,

[01:17:50] would you be in the simulation?

[01:17:51] If you knew it?

[01:17:51] Yeah.

[01:17:52] Yeah.

[01:17:53] It depends.

[01:17:53] You have to pay for the simulation.

[01:17:55] If you got to pay for it,

[01:17:56] then no,

[01:17:56] probably not because I'm poor.

[01:17:57] But like,

[01:17:58] if I didn't have to pay for it,

[01:17:59] like I pretty much be the guy in the matrix who's eating the steak being

[01:18:03] like,

[01:18:03] I'll screw over Neo.

[01:18:05] What's his name?

[01:18:05] Cypher.

[01:18:06] Cypher.

[01:18:07] Yeah.

[01:18:07] I'd be him.

[01:18:08] Me and Jordan pretty much agreed that that we'd be him.

[01:18:10] We'd be the people being like,

[01:18:11] yeah,

[01:18:11] do I want to be in the matrix where it's 1999 and my life is mostly

[01:18:15] awesome.

[01:18:16] Or do I want to get unplugged and be in whatever the hell scion is?

[01:18:20] No,

[01:18:20] thank you.

[01:18:21] I'll take,

[01:18:21] I'll take the matrix.

[01:18:22] Yeah.

[01:18:23] It's funny.

[01:18:23] A lot of people would on the surface be like,

[01:18:25] that's easy to pass up.

[01:18:26] It's like,

[01:18:27] if you forget that you're in the matrix though.

[01:18:30] Exactly.

[01:18:30] Yeah.

[01:18:31] Yeah.

[01:18:31] Plug me back in.

[01:18:32] Tell me I'm not in the matrix.

[01:18:33] I'm good.

[01:18:35] He's like a in the matrix.

[01:18:37] He's like a billionaire.

[01:18:38] And you know,

[01:18:39] yeah.

[01:18:46] Have the occasional mass orgy like occasional,

[01:18:49] like on,

[01:18:50] like on,

[01:18:50] on special occasions.

[01:18:51] Only when they celebrate,

[01:18:52] that's when they have the,

[01:18:54] they have the with techno music though.

[01:19:00] Oh,

[01:19:00] that movie is weird.

[01:19:01] I want to see it weird.

[01:19:03] I want to see a star Trek Christmas party.

[01:19:05] That's something I want to see.

[01:19:07] Star Trek theme Christmas party.

[01:19:09] No,

[01:19:09] no.

[01:19:10] Just like captain Kirk when he's,

[01:19:11] you know,

[01:19:12] apparently,

[01:19:13] apparently a lot happens in the science lab on,

[01:19:16] but apparently I'll sue.

[01:19:18] I want to know what happens in the botany lab after hours.

[01:19:21] That's what I want to.

[01:19:21] Oh my.

[01:19:22] Oh my.

[01:19:24] You think he used that flower hand,

[01:19:26] that hand flower thing?

[01:19:28] Anybody ever does.

[01:19:29] He's Spock.

[01:19:29] He's into weird stuff.

[01:19:30] Not Spock.

[01:19:32] He's into,

[01:19:32] he's into weird stuff.

[01:19:33] I get the feeling that,

[01:19:34] that,

[01:19:35] that,

[01:19:35] that Sulu's into some free loving,

[01:19:37] you know what I,

[01:19:37] you know,

[01:19:37] he's into,

[01:19:38] he's into the,

[01:19:38] maybe some of the weird stuff.

[01:19:40] Not that I'm judging that you'd be in the weird stuff,

[01:19:43] man.

[01:19:43] And yeah,

[01:19:44] muds women had no effect on him.

[01:19:47] No.

[01:19:48] Or maybe he's just that freak that he's like,

[01:19:50] what?

[01:19:50] Three beautiful women.

[01:19:52] It's a Tuesday.

[01:19:53] Yeah,

[01:19:53] exactly.

[01:19:54] Typical Tuesday for Sulu.

[01:19:56] I bet Sulu does throw some raging parties.

[01:19:59] Absolutely.

[01:20:00] In the botany lab.

[01:20:02] All over.

[01:20:03] Is it just random fencing happening?

[01:20:06] Yeah.

[01:20:07] Yeah.

[01:20:08] So I have a very important before we close and I meant to do this last episode,

[01:20:13] but of course I forgot about,

[01:20:14] I have a very important.

[01:20:15] What did we fuck up segment?

[01:20:17] And this one's all me,

[01:20:18] buddy.

[01:20:19] Um,

[01:20:20] I forget which episode.

[01:20:21] You're the expert.

[01:20:23] Well,

[01:20:23] here's the thing.

[01:20:24] Here's the thing though.

[01:20:25] And I blame the internet because the internet got trolled on this one.

[01:20:28] Um,

[01:20:29] remember,

[01:20:30] I forget which episode it was,

[01:20:31] but we very early on discussed the concept of Mary Sue and established that Star Trek

[01:20:36] established that trend.

[01:20:37] Oh,

[01:20:38] I think I saw that in one of the episodes,

[01:20:39] you actually put an editor's note on top of it to be like,

[01:20:42] no,

[01:20:42] that was not right.

[01:20:43] I do recall that now.

[01:20:44] Well,

[01:20:45] I'm going to give you the full context because it turns out the author of that story,

[01:20:49] uh,

[01:20:50] did in fact coin that phrase.

[01:20:52] Her name was not Mary.

[01:20:53] So I put her name.

[01:20:55] That's what it was.

[01:20:56] Yeah.

[01:20:56] Uh,

[01:20:56] but what I didn't know is that Paula Smith did write that story,

[01:20:59] but she was not a fan.

[01:21:01] So I'm just going to share this article with all of you.

[01:21:04] Soon after Paula Smith and Sharon Ferraro launched the,

[01:21:07] one of the earliest Star Trek fanzines,

[01:21:10] they started noticing a pattern to the submissions that they were receiving.

[01:21:14] Each began the same way.

[01:21:15] A young woman would board the starship enterprise and quote,

[01:21:20] because she was just so sweet and good and beautiful and cute.

[01:21:24] Smith recounts quote,

[01:21:26] everyone would just fall all over her.

[01:21:29] Looking back.

[01:21:30] Smith says,

[01:21:31] it was obvious what was going on.

[01:21:33] Quote,

[01:21:34] there were simply,

[01:21:34] they were simply placeholder fantasies.

[01:21:37] And certainly I can't say I didn't have placeholder,

[01:21:40] placeholder fantasies of my own,

[01:21:42] but the thing that had attracted the two friends to Star Trek was that the show,

[01:21:47] which had gone off the air for good in 1969,

[01:21:49] four years before they launched their zine,

[01:21:52] was intelligent.

[01:21:54] These submissions says Smith were not intelligent.

[01:21:58] Quote,

[01:21:58] there were very good stories coming out at the time.

[01:22:01] Add Smith,

[01:22:02] who is now 67 at the time,

[01:22:04] this article was published,

[01:22:05] which this is,

[01:22:06] this was published in 2019.

[01:22:09] Okay.

[01:22:10] Oh,

[01:22:10] wow.

[01:22:10] Okay.

[01:22:11] Yeah.

[01:22:11] So this is relatively new.

[01:22:13] Add Smith,

[01:22:13] who is now 67,

[01:22:14] but there were always a huge helping of what we started calling the letters to

[01:22:18] the editor and other zines,

[01:22:20] a Mary Sue story.

[01:22:22] The quote,

[01:22:23] Mary Sue character introduced in 1973 by Smith in the second issue of menagerie,

[01:22:28] which was the name of their fan magazine named after.

[01:22:32] Oh,

[01:22:33] this,

[01:22:33] this is beautiful.

[01:22:34] This,

[01:22:35] this is not episode.

[01:22:36] This is not on purpose.

[01:22:40] I swear to God,

[01:22:41] this is a happy accident.

[01:22:43] Uh,

[01:22:43] there are a coincidence.

[01:22:44] Yeah,

[01:22:44] that's hilarious.

[01:22:45] Their zine was named menagerie after the two part of the show's first season.

[01:22:48] Articulated a particular trope that exists far beyond the star Trek universe.

[01:22:53] Mary Sue's can be found throughout the history of literature,

[01:22:56] standing on the shoulders of earlier film characters like Pollyanna,

[01:22:59] the unfailingly optimistic protagonists from Eleanor H.

[01:23:03] Porter's children's book series of the 1910s.

[01:23:06] More recently,

[01:23:07] presence to the term can be found in the manic pixie dream girl as coined by

[01:23:11] Nathan Rabin in his review of the Cameron Crowe film,

[01:23:14] Elizabeth town and the Jennifer Lawrence personified cool.

[01:23:18] girl.

[01:23:19] It's no accident that all these examples are women Smith and Ferraro also

[01:23:24] through around terms like Murray Sue and Marty Sue when they corresponded with

[01:23:28] editors of other zines,

[01:23:30] but all,

[01:23:30] but male fill in characters.

[01:23:32] It seemed could be brave and handsome and smart without reproach.

[01:23:37] Characters like Superman were placeholders for the writers to Smith points out,

[01:23:41] but those were boys.

[01:23:43] It was okay for men to have placeholder characters that were incredibly able women on the other

[01:23:48] hand were called out when their characters veiled towards Icarus level heights.

[01:23:51] It's not a surprise that the term caught on fans,

[01:23:55] often men,

[01:23:56] began weaponizing the Mary Sue trope to go after any capable woman represented on page or screen.

[01:24:02] Consider,

[01:24:02] for instance,

[01:24:03] the reaction to Arya Stark on the final season of Game of Thrones,

[01:24:06] which I,

[01:24:07] I have a,

[01:24:08] this is the author,

[01:24:08] not the zine.

[01:24:10] I do have a,

[01:24:13] I do have a bit of a pickle with that,

[01:24:15] but it's a complaint of more of the episode entirely rather than Arya being the one to kill the Night King.

[01:24:22] Spoiler alert for Game of Thrones.

[01:24:23] Uh,

[01:24:24] my issue with that episode is that battle goes on far too long.

[01:24:27] Everyone should be dead.

[01:24:29] I mean,

[01:24:30] I,

[01:24:30] I did,

[01:24:30] I've only seen six seasons of Game of Thrones.

[01:24:33] I,

[01:24:33] I'm aware of the eighth,

[01:24:34] the final season by reputation.

[01:24:36] That's mostly.

[01:24:37] So I actually,

[01:24:37] I actually didn't hate the final season.

[01:24:39] I understand why people say that it felt rushed,

[01:24:42] but specifically the battle of Winterfell or,

[01:24:45] um,

[01:24:46] damn it.

[01:24:47] No,

[01:24:47] the battle of Winterfell was against Ramsey Bolton.

[01:24:49] What do they call that?

[01:24:50] That's the battle of the bastards.

[01:24:52] No.

[01:24:52] So this would be the battle of battle of Winterfell.

[01:24:54] I believe so.

[01:24:55] Yeah.

[01:24:55] Yeah.

[01:24:56] Cause Ramsey Bolton was the battle of the bastards.

[01:24:58] But anyway,

[01:24:58] it's when the,

[01:24:59] the,

[01:24:59] the white walkers attack,

[01:25:01] uh,

[01:25:01] I almost said Rivendell when,

[01:25:03] when the white walkers attack Winterfell.

[01:25:05] Um,

[01:25:06] the episode is like 55 minutes long and through the bulk of it,

[01:25:12] the white walkers are killing so many people so quickly that they should all be dead.

[01:25:17] Fair enough.

[01:25:18] Like just at the kill rate.

[01:25:20] I've heard that episode was bad.

[01:25:21] So that makes sense.

[01:25:22] No,

[01:25:22] here's the thing.

[01:25:23] It's really good.

[01:25:24] It's just illogical because like the first wave of the attack,

[01:25:27] all presumably all the Dothraki ride out and only a handful come back.

[01:25:32] And yet when we get to,

[01:25:33] uh,

[01:25:34] King's landing after Daenerys destroys it,

[01:25:36] there's a shit ton of Dothraki where you get the sense that the vast majority of them were killed at the battle of Winterfell.

[01:25:43] There's exactly two clips about season,

[01:25:45] uh,

[01:25:46] season eight of Game of Thrones that I constantly think of.

[01:25:49] It's that one clip of Amelia Clark being asked what she thinks of it.

[01:25:53] And she,

[01:25:53] her making that wincing face and going,

[01:25:55] it's gonna be.

[01:25:57] And,

[01:25:58] uh,

[01:25:58] the other one is Peter Dinklage being like,

[01:26:00] I,

[01:26:00] I thought Tyrion was supposed to be smart,

[01:26:03] but.

[01:26:04] That's,

[01:26:05] that's another one.

[01:26:06] Yeah.

[01:26:07] But anyway,

[01:26:07] so they're saying is that internet commenters refuse to accept that of all the characters in George RR Martin's universe,

[01:26:13] she emerged as the savior of Westeros,

[01:26:14] which I haven't read the books,

[01:26:16] but I'm given to understand a lot of their problem was the fact that that's not how it plays out in the books.

[01:26:20] If I'm not mistaken.

[01:26:22] Different,

[01:26:22] different.

[01:26:23] Yeah.

[01:26:23] So I think that,

[01:26:25] so I think it's unfair to call people misogynist for pointing out that they didn't follow.

[01:26:30] The one is the one that drives me crazy is when people call Ray a Mary Sue.

[01:26:34] And then it's like,

[01:26:35] then you go,

[01:26:36] it's interesting.

[01:26:37] You mentioned the,

[01:26:38] the,

[01:26:39] um,

[01:26:40] the male Mary Sue,

[01:26:42] because by that,

[01:26:43] by the logic that people,

[01:26:44] people attribute to Ray,

[01:26:45] Luke Skywalker is a Murray Sue.

[01:26:47] I like that term.

[01:26:48] I'm going to know because we see Luke Skywalker training and learning and growing and screwing up movie.

[01:26:53] Not in the first movie,

[01:26:54] the first movie he,

[01:26:55] he nails blowing up the death star in his first try with minimal effort.

[01:27:00] I wouldn't call it minimal effort,

[01:27:02] but I mean,

[01:27:02] it's,

[01:27:03] it's not to the degree of Ray,

[01:27:04] but I guess I can see your point.

[01:27:05] I disagree,

[01:27:06] but I can see your point.

[01:27:08] I'm not the person who makes that point to me.

[01:27:10] Terms like Mary Sue are essentially meaningless to me.

[01:27:13] So like,

[01:27:14] like,

[01:27:14] like it's like,

[01:27:15] is the story interesting?

[01:27:16] Then that's all I care about.

[01:27:17] It wasn't in that movie,

[01:27:18] but that's not the point.

[01:27:19] Okay.

[01:27:19] But anyway,

[01:27:20] I'm going to continue with this because I'm reading the whole thing.

[01:27:23] Cause I don't want to,

[01:27:24] I don't want to miss any context here,

[01:27:25] but when I already killed the 19th,

[01:27:27] it's under the slap of the main.

[01:27:28] What made the situation of game of throne thrones,

[01:27:32] especially frustrating was that the show already had characters.

[01:27:36] that fit the mold of a Murray Sue,

[01:27:39] the forever memeable John snow.

[01:27:41] Again,

[01:27:41] I don't really agree with that.

[01:27:43] Cause John goes through a lot.

[01:27:46] He dies.

[01:27:47] I mean,

[01:27:48] literally.

[01:27:48] Yeah.

[01:27:48] So I don't know that you could call him.

[01:27:51] No,

[01:27:52] his aunt,

[01:27:53] isn't it?

[01:27:54] No.

[01:27:54] Yeah.

[01:27:54] Sorry.

[01:27:55] Yeah.

[01:27:56] Right.

[01:27:57] Perhaps the most meta takedown of the incident came from Rachel Leishman,

[01:28:03] who asked,

[01:28:04] how in the world is Arya Stark a Mary Sue and the publication,

[01:28:07] the Mary Sue,

[01:28:08] a feminist website founded in 2011,

[01:28:10] which among other reasons intentionally took on the name Mary Sue to

[01:28:13] reappropriate the cliche.

[01:28:15] Well,

[01:28:15] I can explain to you how Arya Stark is a Mary Sue.

[01:28:18] Okay.

[01:28:19] No,

[01:28:19] I take that back.

[01:28:20] You can't call Arya Mary Sue because you see her earn a lot.

[01:28:24] I can,

[01:28:25] however,

[01:28:26] I can,

[01:28:27] however,

[01:28:27] see how people have a problem with Arya being the one to kill the night

[01:28:31] King,

[01:28:31] but that's not a hill I'm going to die on.

[01:28:33] No,

[01:28:34] I mean,

[01:28:34] that's not annoying and frustrating narratively speaking,

[01:28:37] but that doesn't make her a Mary Sue.

[01:28:38] If anything,

[01:28:39] Daenerys is a Mary Sue.

[01:28:40] And I don't think Daenerys is a Mary Sue.

[01:28:43] No,

[01:28:43] no,

[01:28:43] I don't really think any of the characters on that show I would

[01:28:45] constitute as being a Mary Sue.

[01:28:47] No,

[01:28:47] I don't think so.

[01:28:48] My response to when anyone ever calls a character Mary Sue is always so.

[01:28:51] Like,

[01:28:52] well,

[01:28:53] because when somebody actually is a Mary Sue,

[01:28:55] it's,

[01:28:55] it's cheap,

[01:28:56] bad writing,

[01:28:56] but anyway,

[01:28:57] so it was when Smith and Ferraro founded Menagerie,

[01:29:00] the culture of the fan made publication was a powerful force within the science fiction fan community.

[01:29:04] The fanzine had actually been born out of the sci-fi scene.

[01:29:08] The science correspondence club in Chicago is credited with producing the first fan mag back in 1930.

[01:29:14] I mean,

[01:29:15] you also got to keep in mind that like,

[01:29:17] like that level of fandom,

[01:29:19] we take this and fandom and,

[01:29:22] and acceptability.

[01:29:23] It's mainstream.

[01:29:24] Now it's like,

[01:29:26] that's like when everyone,

[01:29:27] anyone ever makes any fun of anyone for being a nerd or being into nerd stuff.

[01:29:30] It's like,

[01:29:31] what are you living in the 1970s?

[01:29:34] Like nerd stuff is mainstream.

[01:29:36] Now,

[01:29:36] Marvel comic books,

[01:29:37] video games,

[01:29:38] mainstream.

[01:29:38] Now,

[01:29:39] man,

[01:29:39] like,

[01:29:40] sorry,

[01:29:40] we're part of the public,

[01:29:41] we're probably part of the public zeitgeist.

[01:29:42] You can get over yourselves.

[01:29:44] People like Star Trek,

[01:29:44] and they're not ashamed to admit it.

[01:29:46] Yep.

[01:29:46] But back then,

[01:29:47] it would have been.

[01:29:48] Well,

[01:29:49] and later on,

[01:29:49] it was a sci-fi fan who coined the term fanzine.

[01:29:52] In the pre-internet days,

[01:29:54] these fanzines,

[01:29:55] which actually,

[01:29:55] if you early adopters of the internet remember,

[01:29:58] the term fanzine was still used in the internet space at the time,

[01:30:03] became instrumental in growing fandoms and spreading ideas like the Mary Sue across the country and even around the world.

[01:30:09] For almost 40 years,

[01:30:10] fanzines were the net,

[01:30:12] the cement which kept fandom together as an entity,

[01:30:15] says longtime sci-fi zine writer,

[01:30:17] sci-fi fanzine writer,

[01:30:19] Don Fitch,

[01:30:21] reflected in 1998.

[01:30:22] It helped,

[01:30:23] too,

[01:30:23] that Smith and Ferrara were already active members of the Trek community when they launched the Menagerie in 1973.

[01:30:29] Though nearly four decades have passed since they edited their final issue,

[01:30:34] both can still vividly recall the submission that inspired Mary Sue.

[01:30:37] The piece,

[01:30:39] which came in at 80 pages,

[01:30:41] double-sided,

[01:30:42] centered around a young protagonist who was,

[01:30:45] of course,

[01:30:45] brilliant and beautiful,

[01:30:47] and ultimately proved her mettle by sacrificing her own life to save the crew.

[01:30:51] A tragic moment,

[01:30:52] which was then upended when she resurrected herself.

[01:30:55] Whoa.

[01:30:57] I'd never seen that one anywhere else,

[01:30:59] Smith says with a laugh,

[01:31:01] so I had to give the writer kudos for that.

[01:31:04] Smith,

[01:31:04] a big mad magazine fan,

[01:31:06] couldn't resist writing a concise,

[01:31:08] biting parody in response.

[01:31:11] Quote.

[01:31:11] Ah,

[01:31:12] interesting.

[01:31:13] Yeah.

[01:31:14] Quote,

[01:31:14] G.

[01:31:14] Golly,

[01:31:15] gosh,

[01:31:16] Glorioski,

[01:31:17] it began,

[01:31:18] written from the viewpoint of the youngest lieutenant ever in the history of the Federation,

[01:31:23] a 15 and a half year old,

[01:31:24] laugh Vulcan,

[01:31:25] named Mary Sue.

[01:31:27] Immediately upon coming aboard the USS Enterprise,

[01:31:30] Mary Sue catches the eye of the debonair Captain Kirk,

[01:31:33] who confesses his love to her,

[01:31:35] and propositions a bedroom rendezvous.

[01:31:38] After she turns him down,

[01:31:40] scandalized,

[01:31:41] Captain,

[01:31:41] I'm not that kind of girl.

[01:31:43] Kirk immediately walks back the suggestion.

[01:31:46] You're right,

[01:31:46] and I respect you for it,

[01:31:48] he asserts,

[01:31:48] before tapping her to watch over the ship as he fetches them coffee.

[01:31:54] Next,

[01:31:55] she encounters Mr. Spock,

[01:31:57] the Vulcan science officer,

[01:31:58] who asks why she's sitting in the captain's chair.

[01:32:01] Once she explains herself,

[01:32:03] Spock calls the decision,

[01:32:04] quote,

[01:32:05] flawlessly logical.

[01:32:08] A Trekkie's tale,

[01:32:09] which Smith published anonymously in Menagerie No. 2,

[01:32:13] concludes after Mary Sue dies,

[01:32:15] her heroic death.

[01:32:16] Afterwards,

[01:32:17] Smith writes,

[01:32:18] the entire crew weeps,

[01:32:19] quote,

[01:32:19] unashamedly at the loss of her beautiful youth,

[01:32:22] and youthful beauty,

[01:32:24] intelligence,

[01:32:24] capability,

[01:32:25] and all-around niceness.

[01:32:27] For good measure,

[01:32:28] the Enterprise turns her birthday into a national holiday on the ship.

[01:32:34] Oh my...

[01:32:35] Oh gosh.

[01:32:36] Leave it to the internet to miss the irony of this.

[01:32:40] Quote,

[01:32:41] I wanted to write the complete sort of Mary Sue that there was because they were all alike,

[01:32:46] says Smith.

[01:32:46] It was just so typical that it just had to be done.

[01:32:49] While the original meaning of Mary Sue referred to a stand-in character of any gender orientation,

[01:32:54] the reason Smith and Ferraro encountered more Mary Sues than Murray Sues was that they were running Menagerie,

[01:33:00] likely had more to do with who was writing in.

[01:33:03] Unlike the larger science fiction fan base,

[01:33:05] which skewed male,

[01:33:06] both Smith and Ferraro remember that Star Trek fandom they experienced was made up of mostly women.

[01:33:12] Quote,

[01:33:13] Science fiction fandom in general was like 80% men.

[01:33:16] Ferraro ballparks?

[01:33:17] Star Trek's fandom was the exact opposite.

[01:33:19] At least 75% women.

[01:33:22] And we touched on that because I'm...

[01:33:24] You know,

[01:33:24] we're talking about...

[01:33:25] These are sexy characters.

[01:33:28] Oh yeah.

[01:33:29] Oh yeah.

[01:33:29] They seem to really skew to a female audience.

[01:33:31] And Spock's character changes after that scene in The Naked Time.

[01:33:36] Because female fan mail increased.

[01:33:39] Well,

[01:33:39] I mean,

[01:33:41] this is going to seem unrelated,

[01:33:43] but I promise it is.

[01:33:45] In Japan,

[01:33:46] there's a show called Kamen Rider.

[01:33:48] And the big target demographic for that show is children,

[01:33:52] because it's like a Power Rangers style thing,

[01:33:54] and middle-aged women.

[01:33:56] They just love that show.

[01:33:57] They love the drama.

[01:33:58] They love it.

[01:33:59] So you'd be surprised by where demographics tend to lie when it comes to stuff like this.

[01:34:04] You're like,

[01:34:04] yeah,

[01:34:04] you're expected to be inherently male,

[01:34:06] but no,

[01:34:06] there's some good looking dudes being responsible.

[01:34:10] And you know what I mean?

[01:34:11] Like,

[01:34:11] like taking care of people.

[01:34:13] So yeah,

[01:34:14] yeah,

[01:34:14] I can see why.

[01:34:14] And also,

[01:34:15] in my experience,

[01:34:17] women tend to prefer their smut written.

[01:34:21] Yeah.

[01:34:22] Okay.

[01:34:22] Fair,

[01:34:22] fair.

[01:34:22] Yeah.

[01:34:23] Later,

[01:34:23] cultural critics began to make the argument that Mary Sue's opened up a gateway for writers,

[01:34:28] particularly women,

[01:34:29] and members of underrepresented communities to see themselves as extraordinary characters.

[01:34:34] Quote,

[01:34:34] people have said the Mary Sue characters actually seem to be a stage in writing for many people.

[01:34:40] Smith says,

[01:34:41] it's a way of exercising who they are and what they can imagine themselves doing.

[01:34:45] Which is fair enough.

[01:34:47] Yeah.

[01:34:47] Yeah.

[01:34:48] Naming the trope also allowed people to understand what they were doing when they set out to write a

[01:34:52] Mary Sue or Murray Sue character.

[01:34:55] Quote,

[01:34:55] in terms of teaching writers a lesson,

[01:34:57] it was very useful in that people could say,

[01:34:59] well,

[01:35:00] that's really a Mary Sue story.

[01:35:02] And then they could look at it and decide whether they wanted to change it,

[01:35:05] says Ferraro.

[01:35:06] While both Smith and Ferraro actively worked to populize the term within the Star Trek fan community,

[01:35:11] neither expected it to catch on the way it has.

[01:35:14] Quote,

[01:35:14] I was absolutely blown out of the water when I Googled it the first time and went,

[01:35:18] oh my God,

[01:35:19] says Ferraro.

[01:35:20] Smith agrees.

[01:35:21] I am surprised that it held on for so long.

[01:35:23] Many fan words get tossed around and they live for a while and then they die.

[01:35:27] But Mary Sue has withstood the test of time.

[01:35:31] Both articulate the surreal quality that comes with seeing a name they coined take on a life of its own.

[01:35:37] That includes the creeping sexism that's become associated with the term.

[01:35:41] Quote,

[01:35:42] there were the people who would say anytime there was a female protagonist,

[01:35:47] that's a Mary Sue,

[01:35:48] Smith remembers.

[01:35:49] It just developed in all sorts of ways.

[01:35:51] I think that's a touch hyperbolic.

[01:35:54] Not always.

[01:35:55] Not always.

[01:35:56] No,

[01:35:56] I mean,

[01:35:56] just generally speaking.

[01:35:58] Also,

[01:35:59] anyone who unnecessarily calls a character a Mary Sue tends to be stupid.

[01:36:04] So,

[01:36:05] they're not using the word correct,

[01:36:08] at least in my opinion.

[01:36:09] Fair enough.

[01:36:10] Fair enough.

[01:36:10] Because,

[01:36:10] trust me,

[01:36:11] Mary Sue characters exist.

[01:36:13] Yeah.

[01:36:14] I find this,

[01:36:16] their statements on it,

[01:36:17] though,

[01:36:17] is that the original intent is that,

[01:36:19] or at least their perspective,

[01:36:21] is that Mary Sue is not inherently a bad thing,

[01:36:23] but it has been ascribed to be a bad thing.

[01:36:26] But when it's used correctly,

[01:36:28] like,

[01:36:28] it cannot be a bad thing.

[01:36:30] At least that seems to be their perspective.

[01:36:32] Like,

[01:36:32] they didn't intend it to be a shorthand for it being a bad thing.

[01:36:36] Well,

[01:36:36] but they parodied it,

[01:36:37] so I don't really believe them when they say that.

[01:36:40] Yeah,

[01:36:40] true.

[01:36:41] They were making fun of it.

[01:36:42] But I mean,

[01:36:42] a lot of,

[01:36:43] a lot of people call,

[01:36:43] like Paul from Dune and Mary Sue,

[01:36:45] and I'm like,

[01:36:46] no,

[01:36:47] because,

[01:36:48] granted,

[01:36:48] okay,

[01:36:48] granted,

[01:36:49] granted,

[01:36:49] I will give you this.

[01:36:50] This is why they don't have much of a leg to stand on,

[01:36:52] but they do.

[01:36:53] So,

[01:36:53] Paul is born with some exceptional abilities.

[01:36:57] However,

[01:36:58] this is all explained in universe as to why this is true.

[01:37:03] And granted,

[01:37:03] Paul is born with some things.

[01:37:05] He does have to work at them slightly,

[01:37:07] but it's explained why he,

[01:37:09] he doesn't just have them.

[01:37:12] It's explained why he has them.

[01:37:13] That's why I make the case that Paul is not a Mary Sue,

[01:37:16] but closing out the article,

[01:37:19] but she's found her peace with it.

[01:37:21] Quote,

[01:37:21] you can't control the term.

[01:37:22] Nobody does after a while.

[01:37:23] She says,

[01:37:24] it's like children.

[01:37:24] You raise them and you say,

[01:37:26] oh my gosh,

[01:37:27] what's happened here?

[01:37:28] And off they go.

[01:37:29] And you're pleased to get a call 40 years later from Smithsonian to talk about

[01:37:33] them.

[01:37:34] Yeah,

[01:37:35] no,

[01:37:35] fair enough.

[01:37:36] I mean,

[01:37:36] she definitely made a cultural impact.

[01:37:38] That's for sure.

[01:37:39] And that's the other thing is this is,

[01:37:40] this is several decades removed.

[01:37:42] So yes,

[01:37:43] they probably view the term differently now than they did then.

[01:37:46] Sure.

[01:37:47] Back then they were probably back then.

[01:37:48] They were probably like,

[01:37:49] I can't believe all these little Mary Sue writing their stories.

[01:37:52] That's so interesting though,

[01:37:54] because my,

[01:37:55] my,

[01:37:56] um,

[01:37:57] I always thought it was like a,

[01:37:58] like a random teenage girl who wrote this really like,

[01:38:02] I had no idea that I had no idea it was satire.

[01:38:04] See,

[01:38:05] I didn't either.

[01:38:06] But the thing is like,

[01:38:07] that's the narrative that's even on the internet today.

[01:38:09] How I found this out was because I wanted to find the entire story.

[01:38:12] And I came across this article and I'm like,

[01:38:15] and instantly when I read that it was a parody,

[01:38:17] I'm like,

[01:38:17] Oh my God,

[01:38:18] this makes a thousand percent more sense.

[01:38:20] Yeah.

[01:38:20] Cause to me,

[01:38:21] there's a difference between a character having a natural innate ability.

[01:38:24] And like,

[01:38:25] she walks onto the enterprise and everyone's instantly her best friend.

[01:38:28] And then she brings herself back to life at the end after tragically dying.

[01:38:32] This is two kinds of different things.

[01:38:34] Yes,

[01:38:35] that is.

[01:38:35] Yeah.

[01:38:36] That is why you watched the final frontier because we have fun and you learn

[01:38:39] shit.

[01:38:40] I learned shit today.

[01:38:42] I wasn't expecting that when I was rewatching that boring pilot.

[01:38:45] I wasn't expecting to learn something.

[01:38:47] Ah,

[01:38:48] but I digress.

[01:38:49] It is now time to end the episode.

[01:38:52] Although,

[01:38:53] Oh no,

[01:38:53] I had a second ad break.

[01:38:54] Didn't I?

[01:38:56] I believe you do.

[01:38:58] I had not done a second.

[01:38:59] Nope.

[01:38:59] Wait.

[01:39:00] Yes.

[01:39:00] Cause you did the Christopher Walken impression.

[01:39:02] That's right.

[01:39:03] I did,

[01:39:04] but okay.

[01:39:05] Alas,

[01:39:05] it is time.

[01:39:06] We have come to the end of this two part episode done in one part for

[01:39:10] your,

[01:39:11] you know,

[01:39:11] saving you some time.

[01:39:12] And us.

[01:39:13] Yeah.

[01:39:13] And us.

[01:39:14] I saved us a lot of time.

[01:39:15] We did the same thing.

[01:39:17] Yeah.

[01:39:18] We did the same thing they did.

[01:39:20] We saved on production time.

[01:39:22] Yeah.

[01:39:23] Yeah.

[01:39:23] We absolutely.

[01:39:23] Man,

[01:39:24] we are filthy,

[01:39:25] filthy hypocrites.

[01:39:26] We're not really.

[01:39:27] I didn't really.

[01:39:27] From the next episode,

[01:39:28] editor,

[01:39:29] Jake.

[01:39:30] Yeah.

[01:39:31] Tune in next time.

[01:39:33] And you know what,

[01:39:34] you know what you did?

[01:39:36] You forgot the paramount plus.

[01:39:39] So I did the beginning.

[01:39:41] Yeah.

[01:39:41] Yeah.

[01:39:42] There just,

[01:39:42] there wasn't,

[01:39:42] there wasn't,

[01:39:43] there wasn't much.

[01:39:43] It was just basically like,

[01:39:44] it was like spotting.

[01:39:45] Doc is in trouble.

[01:39:46] And Pike was back.

[01:39:47] Pike was back.

[01:39:48] And I have two partner.

[01:39:49] Pike was back.

[01:39:50] Well,

[01:39:50] tune in next time.

[01:39:51] And are you,

[01:39:52] you're going to try to do your little guessing game here.

[01:39:56] Join us next week when we watch and go over and talk about the conscience of the king.

[01:40:01] Oh,

[01:40:01] okay.

[01:40:02] Well,

[01:40:02] I mean,

[01:40:03] clearly there is a,

[01:40:04] there's a,

[01:40:05] they're going to a planet with a monarchy.

[01:40:07] And I'm,

[01:40:07] I'm guessing my,

[01:40:08] my base guess is this is going to be about trying either trying to convince a king,

[01:40:13] like not to do something bad or like instilling democracy,

[01:40:17] go failing into a failing monarchy because of the 1960s.

[01:40:20] And this is the cold war.

[01:40:22] No.

[01:40:24] Dang.

[01:40:24] Am I close?

[01:40:26] No.

[01:40:27] Oh,

[01:40:27] dang.

[01:40:28] See,

[01:40:29] see,

[01:40:29] I'm going to come back now.

[01:40:30] I'm going to come back next week.

[01:40:31] And I'm going to be like,

[01:40:32] you were so right.

[01:40:32] I was so far off.

[01:40:34] Hard country being very wrong.

[01:40:36] You got me on one.

[01:40:37] You got me on the naked time being about time travel.

[01:40:40] Cause I literally didn't remember that,

[01:40:41] but yeah.

[01:40:43] Yeah.

[01:40:44] That was,

[01:40:44] that was funny.

[01:40:45] Well,

[01:40:45] yeah.

[01:40:45] Well,

[01:40:46] you know,

[01:40:46] we'll see when I,

[01:40:47] it turns out I'm actually right next week.

[01:40:49] Again,

[01:40:49] hard cut to clips of next week of me being like,

[01:40:52] I'm very,

[01:40:53] I was very wrong.

[01:41:02] Let's,

[01:41:02] let's just say Scooby and the gang need not have been called.

[01:41:07] So it's,

[01:41:07] it's being a starship captain.

[01:41:09] 90% you sitting in a chair and looking contemplative.

[01:41:13] It seems extremely careless given what's going on to let this play happen.