Choose Your Own Scare! (ft. Mark Nagata)

[00:00:02] The most thrilling, spikingly series ever! From the pages of R.L. Stine's best-selling books, and the screens go on forever and ever! We now return to Goosebumps.

[00:01:06] Greetings Goosebumps fans, young and old, big and small, living dead and undead. Welcome back to the Goosebumps Crew Podcast. As always, I am your host, Isaiah Vargas, and I'm joined by my good buddies Bjorn Palenik and Nick Shaw. We are the Goosebumps Crew, and we're back, as always, to talk some Goosebumps. If this is your first time joining us here on the Goosebumps Crew Podcast, I want to sincerely welcome you all. If you are or have ever been a fan of the popular Goosebumps series of books or the monster franchise that they spawned, I have a feeling this podcast is going to be right up your alley.

[00:01:33] As I always say, me, Bjorn, and Nick, some of the biggest Goosebumps nerds on the entire planet, we can talk about Goosebumps for hours on end, and that is exactly what we do here on this podcast. Every week, we've got a brand new episode talking about everything Goosebumps, whether it be the books, TV shows, movies, video games, merchandise, whatever it is. If it has Goosebumps in the name, we're going to talk about it so much that you are going to be sick of hearing about Goosebumps by the time you're done hearing us talk about it. So with all that said, if you end up liking today's episode, make sure you have a like and comment.

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[00:02:29] You can also follow Bjorn and Nick at Goosebumps, Saucyfan, and Shallon, respectively, on their social medias and their YouTubes. All those links are in the description below. So check them out. Join the Goosebumps crew today. Become a crew member. We thank you in advance for your support. Now, for those who are frequent listeners here on the podcast, you'll know that we have talked to so far two Goosebumps cover artists. That being, of course, Mr. Tim Jacobus, who did the original 62, Series 2000, some of the more iconic ones.

[00:02:56] We also talked to Craig White, who did the back half of the series Give Yourself Goosebumps. And now today we can officially say that we've had three Goosebumps cover artists on. So we are once again revisiting the Choose Your Own Adventure-style Goosebumps series, Give Yourself Goosebumps. And we are covering, you know, we said we talked to the person who did the back half. Now we've got to talk about the front half. So joining us today to talk about his work on Give Yourself Goosebumps and the Goosebumps

[00:03:23] franchise as a whole is professional artist and illustrator and owner of the Max Toy Company, Mr. Mark Nagata. Mark, thank you so much for joining us. How are you doing today? Thank you for the invite. Absolutely. Yeah, we're very happy to have you. You know, we're always interested in hearing about all the wonderful Goosebumps art. I mean, we always say that the Goosebumps art is just phenomenal. We did an entire top 10 list on our favorite covers. And some of yours made that list, I will say.

[00:03:52] So we're very, very excited to get a chance to talk with you. But I guess as always to start out, you know, you've done more than just Goosebumps. As I said, you're a professional artist and illustrator and you own a toy company. You got to make kaiju figures and all the sorts. So you've had a pretty long career. Can you tell us a little bit about how you got started? Oh boy, that's an easy, I mean, that's a difficult one.

[00:04:18] So I guess, well, to start from the beginning, I always loved to draw. And ever since I was about three years old, I've been drawing superheroes and monsters. And my mother even saved, you know, like little drawings I did back in those days.

[00:04:42] And then you flash forward to just after high school, it was suggested by one of my art teachers. Like, hey, you know, you should go to like a real art school, you know. And if you want to become a professional artist, then, you know, like I, you know, I think maybe that's a good direction for you. And, you know, it took me a few years. I kind of went longer than usual because in the meantime, I was working part time just to save money.

[00:05:10] And then the art school I went to, Academy of Art, it was called College back then in San Francisco. It's fairly expensive. So I could only take like maybe, you know, not quite full time. It was like maybe half time courses. And it took me a few years to get through that. But while I was in art school, I realized that what I wanted to do was commercial art.

[00:05:38] And so when I say commercial art, I mean like literally like beer cans flying in space, you know, soda cans, you know, whatever, you know, with monsters and all over them and stuff. Just, I mean, basically stuff that you'd see in the grocery stores and things like that. And my teachers didn't like that type of art, even though that's where you made your money.

[00:06:02] Like they wanted the kids to be more sort of fine artists and, you know, do like a nice kind of, you know, I don't know, sort of like, you know, more like an impressionist kind of, you know, style of painting. And that really wasn't for me. So at that point, I put my portfolio together. And then a fellow arts student and I went to New York because we knew you had to get like an agent, an art agent to get you jobs out of if you weren't living in New York.

[00:06:31] I mean, we were living in San Francisco. So, of course, we'd have to fly there. So we flew there. We were showing our portfolios around. And this is kind of an interesting aside because one of the reps we saw, and I can't remember the name of the rep, but they actually showed us early Tim Jacobus work. And they were like, oh, you know, your portfolios are just so-so, but, you know, here are some of the people we represent.

[00:06:57] And I swear to God, it was like one of the paintings I know was a Tim Jacobus because I saw his name on it. It said Jacobus, right? This is before Goosebumps, okay? So, you know, it's like foreshadowing what's going to come. And anyways, on the final day we were there, luckily we were able to pick up an art agent who was willing, you know, to take our portfolios around, get us work from, you know, ad agencies and design firms. And, of course, they take a cut, which is fine.

[00:07:28] But we came back to the West Coast and, you know, we just started freelancing as best as we could. And, you know, maybe the first year was a little slow, but then gradually as my portfolio was circulating the East Coast, started getting more work in. And that was sort of the beginning of my illustration career. And again, pre-Photoshop, pre-email, I don't know, like sometimes I try to describe, but it sounds like the Stone Age, you know? Yeah.

[00:07:58] But, you know, like when I'd finish a job, a painting, I'd have to FedEx the actual painting all the way to the East Coast and it actually would get there, you know? And, you know, if everything went fine and the client loved it, then that's the end of the project, right? You know, I get paid and whatever. But if there was any corrections on the painting, they'd have to send it back to me, right?

[00:08:24] And so they'd go all the way from New York back to San Francisco, you know, overnight it. Next day, I'd, you know, get up and the FedEx guy, you know, deliver the painting to me. I'd have to, like, make some changes. Then I'd have to pack it back up and I'd have to send it back to New York again. And so it was just like, I mean, that's all I was used to. But of course, now when I think of in these days, you could just scan it or you could create it digitally and, you know, no problem, right? You just email it or upload it.

[00:08:53] But where's the heart? True. Well, so, yeah, we can get into that. And also the fact that, you know, this is kind of jumping ahead, but now 30 years after the fact of doing the Give Yourself Goosebump covers. I mean, I literally have all the paintings. I've only sold one. So I have all the physical paintings for all the book covers.

[00:09:18] And luckily, my agent was savvy enough to get back every single painting for me. You know, they didn't disappear in the ether or whatever. So for that point alone, I'm just, you know, thankful that I was doing, like, physical media, if that makes any sense. So anyways, so basically I was doing that for probably five or six years.

[00:09:46] And then my agent got me on the phone and said, hey, you know, like I was in Scholastic and, you know, I was kind of overhearing a conversation, you know, about Goosebumps. And, you know, he knew that Tim, of course, was their main artist, the artist, which, you know, was great. And but he said, I think I see an opening for you. He goes, I hear they're going to do the spinoff book. Give yourself Goosebumps.

[00:10:14] And for whatever reason, which, yeah, I don't know. Maybe you can ask Tim about this because I don't know anything about why he only did the first cover. But then from the second cover, right, is when I started.

[00:10:29] And I actually had to do a little tryout piece for that because in my portfolio, like I was telling you, I had like, you know, soda cans flying in space and, you know, just just very slick kind of commercial things. So I wasn't really showing anything that was more fantasy or horror like.

[00:10:50] But I was, you know, I told my agent, I said, like, give me give me two days, you know, let me whip something up and, you know, I'll FedEx the piece to you and, you know, bring it in. And, you know, let's see if if it's something that they think, you know, they can try me on. And let me see if I can. I think I have it right here. The tryout piece.

[00:11:14] So it's not, you know, the difficult thing is, is they didn't really at least when they first approached me, they didn't want me just to be a copy of Tim. They were like, you know, well, we needed sort of bright colors and kind of creepy. But we're sort of looking in maybe a possible sort of different direction on it. And I was like, OK, I don't know what that means, but I'll try to create something. Right. Right. So let's see.

[00:11:41] I don't know if you'll be able to see this, but this is the initial. Ooh, I love that. Image that I came up with, which is like a little skeleton guy playing basketball. I love that. Yeah. In a graveyard. Why is that not on a Goosebumps book cover? Well, you know, OK, so. So it was it was good enough to sort of get me the gig.

[00:12:08] But I think they felt it was it was too slick. You know, they wanted something for lack of better words, kind of a little more painterly. You know, like Tim stuff has a little more kind of texture going into the brushstrokes and stuff, you know, less sort of slick airbrush. And so that was sort of my. How do I say sort of the.

[00:12:37] Thing they, you know, my criticism on or their criticism on the piece was like, OK, we're going to give you this first book, but try to make it a little less slick. I guess that was the main thing. And so that first one was the was it tick tock. You're dead. Yeah. So real quick, I guess I'll just show you guys.

[00:13:02] So, again, the way they would give me sort of the synopsis is they would fax me a short copy of like what this book's going to be about. And so I think this is something I might have sent sent you guys. But it's just a bunch of text that just says like, you know, oh, you know, you and your little brother, Danny and their parents, you know, they're going to New York City for vacation and blah, blah, blah.

[00:13:30] You know, you know, then you open up this and blah, blah, blah. And, you know, you get scared. And and so it's it's just kind of a general overview. But they they definitely wanted like a giant clock face on the front. And then the kid like hanging off the one of the arms of the of the clock. And and that was it. I mean, you know, basically just, you know, go go from there.

[00:13:54] I could not find the sketches I did, but I do know they they required three versions. And then from those three, they would either pick one of the three or they would pick one and say, oh, can you you like we like this one, but can you just like do a variation or whatever on it? Yeah. And so I see if I can. Sorry for looking down here.

[00:14:22] So the sketch that they did pick was was this one. Hmm. Or it's pretty they're pretty crude. I mean, it's just sort of and it was a square format. That was the other the other thing that I had to adhere to in terms of dimensions and stuff. And so little little kid hanging off the clock.

[00:14:51] And so at the time I I made a like a little clay sculpture. Oh, as a guide for the clock. That's cool. So that's awesome. That's awesome. I can tell like, you know, like where the light would hit it. Right. If if it's being lit from below. So and then they also gave me a budget for the kid. OK, originally I was just going to sort of make up the kid hanging off the clock.

[00:15:21] But my agent was like, oh, I think you better you better like hire a model. So I've covered up the kids contact and stuff because I'm sure he's an old guy now. But this is the kid they picked just a generic, you know, kid from some agency. And then we did a photo shoot where he's like, you know, got his arms up, like pretending he's hanging off the one of the arms of the clock.

[00:15:53] And and then from there, once I had the the sketch approved and then the kid hanging off and terms of colors, they were just saying, you know, make it bright. Like Goosebump, Goosecump, you know, Tim Jacobus colors. Yeah. And then that was let's see if I can find it. Oops. Yeah. So then here's the final. Oh, so cool. Man.

[00:16:23] I love that. And I would have been so tempted to do a variation with the kids like hanging half out of the mouth or something. Right. Well, I mean, you know, there's I can show you guys some other other book cover sketches. I feel like. I feel like they didn't always pick the one I wanted them to pick, if that makes any sense. Yeah.

[00:16:50] It's always the worst one that I would come up with, because like, you know, usually the A is usually my vision for it. B is like, well, that's OK. And then C is always like, I have no idea. I'm just going to, you know, throw something in there because they want three examples. And they always went with C. So that was always kind of frustrating, you know, from an artistic standpoint. I was kind of like, you know, I don't know.

[00:17:18] It's you guys are always kind of picking the one I don't like, but it's OK. You're paying for it. It's always funny, though, because, you know, in recent years, a lot of the sketch of the original Goosebumps covers has come up mostly from, excuse me, from Tim Jacobus's side. So you get to see those different variations on like what could have been done nowadays. You know, all the Goosebumps covers are iconic in their own way.

[00:17:47] Like everybody knows them, especially, you know, hardcore Goosebumps fans like us. We know them. But it's always interesting to just see like what it also could have looked like. And sometimes it's like, oh, yeah, they went with the best one. Sometimes it's like, actually, that one actually might have been a little better. Right. Right. And and it's it's very individualistic. Right.

[00:18:09] I mean, you may prefer something that's just like like a scene, you know, like say cheese and die or something, you know, just like, oh, they're just barbecuing. Whereas maybe an alternate version is more in your face, you know, like the hot dogs like right in front of you. And, you know, it's like much more weirded out. So, yeah, I could never really. What's the word? I guess I could never really predict which way they were going to go.

[00:18:39] Like sometimes I'd look at my three sketches and go like, oh, yeah, OK, they're going to go with the safe one. And then sometimes they'd surprise me. It's like, you know, like, oh, really? Like, you know, you're going with that one with the skull exposed. And, you know, I'm very glad you brought that one up. This is one that I personally love is Escape from Camp Run for Your Life. Now, actually, before I get into the art, I just got to say, because we didn't really get to talk about this before on the podcast.

[00:19:08] But I love these holographic covers on these books. It's actually, you know what? I feel like we might have done it. But like I think it was you, Nick, that brought up that this is like so 90s and just the holographic design of these particular books. And I think it complements the art very well. It just there's something about the color scheme of the of the cover with all the flashy holographic and then the art right in the middle.

[00:19:37] But but yeah, the one you were mentioning was this one. And this one is I can't believe they went with this one because there's worms coming out of the, you know, the holes in the head. And then you got the not only the skull exposed, but the brain like the brain is exposed to this one. It's just terrifying. Like it freaked me out. This is this is one of the few colors because we did a top 10 video. This was in like right up there for me. And this is one that really terrified me when I would look at it.

[00:20:06] I just I love it so much. I love the background colors as well. Like the. Oh, yeah, the colors like this, the the use of purple and orange, like the orange of the campfire and then the purple night sky with the moon is like such good accenting colors to the blue and the green and the yellow of the corpses. Right up in front. Yeah, I don't know how I did it. It's just you just made magic happen. I think it was whatever color was sitting on my on my table.

[00:20:36] You remember which one you which painting you which was the painting you sold? The peanut butter one. The peanut butter. Oh, yeah. Yeah. This one. Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. That one. That's the only one I've sold. So beware the purple peanut butter. I've said it before is one of the first Goosebumps books ever of any series that I ever saw.

[00:21:01] And as a wee kid, you know, this was it was so weird. And actually, it kind of freaked me out because it's like, oh, why is he in a big sandwich? Like, what does that make? But I love it. I this is one of my absolute favorite Goosebumps covers of all time. I just love how silly and goofy it is. But also, like, obviously a terrifying situation. Nobody wants to end up in a sandwich. Yeah, I've got I've got to dig up those sketches.

[00:21:31] There were it started off where they did not want to face. So it was just like like a baseball cap kind of peeking out and just, you know, give me the sense of like, oh, there's a kid or somebody in there. And then, of course, the legs popping out. And then it sort of devolved into like, oh, no, no, we got to show his face and blah, blah, blah.

[00:21:52] But I mean, just like I used to get stuck in these kind of, you know, I mean, it's it's, you know, I'm just basically I'm doing what they're asking me to do, if that makes sense. So I would just sit there and, you know, read these faxes or, you know, talk on the phone with my agent. And he'd go, well, we're not sure, you know, they want to do this. We're doing that. And I'm like, OK, just you just you guys just tell me what to do and I'll do it. But this was during peak goosebumps time, too.

[00:22:21] So they would have been like, really, you know, like trying to get these books out, you know, because like Nick was saying, there was just like a new book like every week. Just like, yeah. So when we started going, it was like like a two week turnaround. So from beginning to me delivering the painting to them and in terms of me being able to actually paint on the painting.

[00:22:47] Oh, it's like four days, maybe because, you know, you have to factor in the FedEx thing back and forth. If there's any changes and it's like it's that's got to be squeezed in there. So I was turning them out like, yeah. And honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if maybe, you know, the position to open up because Tim Jacobus like this was the first Give Yourself Goosebumps came out in 1995. So they were still in the middle of the original series. Let's say.

[00:23:16] Yeah. Yeah. Oh, no, he was. Yeah, he was deep into it. Yeah. So he was doing that. And then obviously, like by time all this was going, then he had series 2000 as well. So, I mean, they kept him going, but then obviously, yeah, they had this other side series going. I would be surprised given what we've heard about their deadlines for especially during that time. Because again, like you said, you had to ship these.

[00:23:45] These weren't something that would be, you know, a scan or, oh, here's a quick pick and I'll, I'll text it to you. Here, tell me what you want changed. You know, so it was very, I don't know, hectic, I guess is the best word to use. Well, you guys are young guys. A word of advice. And that's to, you know, definitely you got to pace yourself.

[00:24:14] I mean, I would say at the end of my run with Goosebumps, which kind of also dovetailed to computers and Photoshop coming in, which we can talk a little bit about, which is when Craig came in. And no, no, no offense to Craig. I just, I love his work too.

[00:24:35] But yeah, I mean, I, I was so burnt out just of illustration in general that, you know, I, I literally had like an ulcer developing and I had to just like step away from it. And, and, oh, it looks like we got a, we got a frozen screen here. Oh, we do? Oh, okay. There you go. Oh, maybe I might be on my end. Sorry.

[00:25:06] No, all good. That's all right. Yeah. So, so yeah, I mean, it was a good run and, and, you know, I mean, another thing I guess maybe people don't realize too, is I was doing other work than other than Goosebumps. So I was also doing, like you said, graveyard school. I did some spine tingler covers.

[00:25:28] And locally, I go, this is all back East, but in on the West Coast where I'm based, I was doing advertising work. So I was still doing product illustration and, you know, work for designers. So, yeah, it was, it was nuts. I mean, you know, Goosebumps was great, but it was like one project in, in a given month where I'm filled with like five or six other projects of varying degrees.

[00:25:56] You know, some are, some I could cut, you know, bust out faster. Some took a little longer, but yeah, I mean, you know, I was like 30. So it's like, I could not do that now. I think I, I saw somebody maybe put a comment or something like, oh, you know, Mark should do, you know, like a new version of this cover or, or, you know, whatever.

[00:26:21] And that would be great, but I don't even think I have the energy anymore for some of that stuff. I mean, yeah, I don't blame you. I mean, we, we talk about with, you know, with Tim and Craig, you know, and we know I'll, I'll ask you the same question of course.

[00:26:39] Because I'm always curious, like, you know, of the stuff, if they did ask you to come back and like, say, redo a cover, like not to make it exact, but, you know, do how you want to do with this. Um, you know, I think Tim said he would like to go back to terror and tower and kind of revisit some of the back, um, piece of that. And, you know, a couple other things.

[00:27:02] And, um, I think, I can't remember if Craig said his or not, but was there something like something like that? I mean, I think maybe we'd be very interested in, cause we always thought it'd be really cool if they did like a anniversary edition of a book. Right, right.

[00:27:47] Well, as I could do considering the time constraints and my skill level at that point and, and my energy level. Um, so to be honest, I mean, I think I would be less, that, that would intrigue me less than if they just said, could you create a new image? You know, I think I'd be more excited about doing something new. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So, um, I do want to ask.

[00:28:15] So, uh, you had said that, you know, when you got the job, they were like, we want somebody who's not just another, you know, Tim Jacobus, you know, stand out. Right. But in creating your art, did you take any, uh, inspiration for him or even have a chance to sort of like collaborate and get some pointers? Uh, you know, I, I actually, I've never met or talked to Tim or Craig. Wow.

[00:28:40] So I feel like, yeah, I, I'm just sort of, and I, maybe it's just a, just because I'm out here in the West coast or whatever. Um, and you know, all the job was being filtered through my agent. So I wouldn't really talk to the art directors directly either, because that's what I was paying my agent to do was to deliver the art and, you know, whatever, you know, give me feedback or, um, on, on the things.

[00:29:06] And, um, you know, I think the main thing was just like the kind of whacked out the, the, um, sort of backgrounds that are all kind of, you know, uh, blown out like a wide angle kind of lens look. They, they always liked me to do that. And that's obviously directly from Tim's covers. Um, now in terms of like coloring, I always, or my style tends to be.

[00:29:36] Much more colorful anyways. So I think if anything, um, you know, Tim and I are, would be similar on that level in terms of bright colors. Uh, but just in general, I mean, I think they wanted all the, you know, obviously all the covers to, to pop. Um, but getting back to the, the campfire. But yeah, I like, yeah, I just, I couldn't believe that they wanted the flayed skin and the, and the skeleton.

[00:30:05] I was just like, are you guys like, really? Like, I mean, I didn't mind doing it, but I was just kind of like, kept thinking they're going to want me to repaint this over. Right. It's like, as soon as they get the painting, they're going to look at that, you know, that arm. And then the flesh peeled over. Whereas like, they're going to go like, yeah, that's too much. You know, we, we can't go there.

[00:30:26] I mean, when they got later into goosebumps, you know, they were, they were starting to take more risk with the art, especially when they got to, uh, a series 2000. And like the art started getting a little more grotesque, a little more, obviously not, you know, so gruesome that it's inappropriate for kids. But, um, they were, they were leaning more into the sort of like gross nature of things. So I don't know, maybe it was just kind of like, you know what, let's go for it. Like let's, why not?

[00:30:57] We're taking more risks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, make it more edgy. And also, uh, piggybacking off, uh, the, that question about, uh, Tim. So Tim's art had a lot of, um, his own personal inserts that he liked to do. He liked to do checkerboard floors. He liked to add Converse sneakers. Was there ever anything in your art that you wanted to add that was particularly your own sort of style?

[00:31:25] Um, or was it pretty straightforward overall? It's pretty much straightforward. Um, I would try to hide like a little skull somewhere. Um, so if it was like in the wood grain or, uh, you know, sort of like hidden in the background, um, I was able. Yes. Yes.

[00:31:45] Sometimes even, sometimes even more subtle than that, but, um, more so on the graveyard school, I was, they gave me pretty much free reign on those covers. So, um, I guess maybe if you're, if you ask me like in for the, give yourself goosebumps, I had to sort of stay in sort of a lane that didn't deviate too far from sort of Tim's look. If that makes sense.

[00:32:13] They, you know, they didn't, they knew, or they knew I wasn't Tim, but they also didn't want it to look so out of the way that, you know, kids, you know, would think like, well, what the heck is this? You know, it's like, it doesn't fit in with goosebumps, but for graveyard school, I feel like that's sort of my more natural style. Um, yeah. With those covers. Um, and then also they, and like I was saying, they gave me much more free reign in terms of, um, what I could do with it.

[00:32:41] Um, so the green bird is great because I, I feel like after we've talked to like, um, Tim and Craig, I think both of them said too, at some point that they kind of got free reign, uh, with their covers, you know, Tim, especially with serious 2000, you know, they, they let him do that extra go test stuff. And because they were trying to appeal now to the goosebumps kids who were growing up with the books, you know, the hidden that next stage, you know?

[00:33:07] So I kind of feel like if they could have stuck it out a little bit longer, I mean, I love Craig stuff too. Don't get me wrong, but it was weird that they kind of cut, um, the artwork almost in half of the books where the front half obviously was your style. And then they jumped into, to Craig's and, um, or for a direction that they wanted to begin with where it was, they want you to be Tim, but not be Tim at the same time. Figure that out.

[00:33:33] Uh, so, uh, you know, I think it was really interesting that they, they kind of shifted away from that. Uh, because honestly it was, it's great art. I mean, obviously, like I said, we all have some of your covers in our top tens. Um, it's, it goes without saying, I think that, uh, while it is similar, it is not exact to Tim. So I think you hit the mark with it. Um, but yeah, that market, that's just my opinion on it. Yeah.

[00:34:03] Mark hit the mark. I'll be honest when I was, when I was a young dumb kid and I was looking at these books, I honestly, I, I was easily fooled. I was like, Oh, I just, I figured they were all by the same guy. And you know, I, it wasn't until I got older that I figured out like, you know, that you did these ones and then he did those. But it was like, honestly, for some kids, I wouldn't be surprised if they were just kind of like, you know, like they were just all the same.

[00:34:29] Um, I, and I mean that as a compliment, like, cause yeah, I feel like you, you blended in with the goosebump style very well. Like just the way that you compose those paintings fit not only goose bumps, but really fit. It's hard for me to really explain what I mean by this, but because of the choose your own adventure aspect of this series, um, the art sort of had to reflect that.

[00:34:55] So, I mean, you said it yourself, the, the, the ones that Tim did were very much scene based. So, um, you know, they would have say cheese and die. That's the barbecue scene. And that's the scene in the book. Um, or it would just sort of be like a look at the monster in question, uh, like a slappy or a haunted mask. Like, it's just sort of a visual, um, with the choose your own adventure ones, you sort of have to have an image that sets up the general plot.

[00:35:23] Um, but it's also enticing you to like, find out what's in the story and find your own path. Um, I really like this one in particular. Um, again, love the colors, the, the, the, the purples and the, something about purples and pinks are really good spooky colors and you never would guess, but they really are. Um, but just the graveyard, the spider webs and the, the green glow with the skeleton hands.

[00:35:50] Like it's just, it's so, it just fits, but it's also fitting for a choose your own adventure. I personally feel. Right. Right. And that one was a little difficult because I think we went through, I think maybe like nine drawings before they settled on one because originally they were like, oh, we want a view of like the viewers in the, in the pit looking up.

[00:36:18] But we also want to see part of the coffin. I'm like, I don't know. Like, like, okay, so you're inside the grave, but then the coffin, so you're not in the coffin, but the coffins next to you. It's like, anyways, we went through all these sketches and then another one was like, oh no, you're standing, you know, on top of the pit looking down. But then the coffin's doing this. I mean, it was just like, they're all over the place. And then, you know, finally they were just like, oh, just have it laying there with, you know, with the skeleton hands coming out.

[00:36:48] It's like, why did you just tell me that from the beginning? You know? Yeah. Like your versions of like curly were coming in, like your little skull that you would hide. It was like, was that your curly? It was just my way of just kind of, you know, being a rebel. So yeah. If I'm not mistaken, you, you drew a drawing of curly at some point. Yeah. So, okay.

[00:37:16] As you were saying, those characters, slappy, curly, and all the kind of main, mainline characters. I was not allowed to do those. Okay. And that's fine. You know, that's like, that's Tim. That's, you know, that's, you know, that they, they've got their thing going. But at one point, my agent said, hey, you know, Tim doesn't have time to do this, but they want to do a bookmark for, you know, whatever, some libraries or something.

[00:37:46] And, you know, so that's curly on it and he needs to be sort of like in a, a room with, you know, books and stuff and, you know, blah, blah, blah. Mike, okay, cool. So then, you know, I did up the sketches and yes, yes. And so it even got, it got as far as what you were showing. Let's see if I think, yes, I have it. I have him here. Wow. Oh man.

[00:38:16] So that's awesome. Yeah. It went all the way to a finished painting and then I get the news. Oh no, you can't do it. Cause you know, Tim, Tim does, does that character and they're probably just going to use some existing art and, you know, of Tim's and put it up, put it on the. I think I know the one. I don't know.

[00:38:45] The one of them sitting there's the picture of, yeah. Curly sitting in the, it's on the cover of one of the calendars, isn't it? Isn't it? Isn't it the same? Yeah. It's the 95 calendar. Yeah. It would have been that image. I'm assuming. Um, but that I really like your version. That's awesome. Yeah. Really good. Hey, another thing. That's really odd because the nineties were different artists. Anyways.

[00:39:10] I mean, when you look at merchandise, uh, it wasn't Tim's are on everything they had a month. They had a separate artist doing some stuff. I'm guessing because you could tell just by looking at curly and cuddles and the horror that that's not Tim's are. That's clearly someone else. So I don't see why they would have done that. That's so weird because yeah. It sucks that like you're brought into a series like goosebumps that has so many iconic creatures and you're barred from using them.

[00:39:40] Like, well, it wasn't necessarily that I was barred, but it was more like, oh, if yeah, you know, it was just like, you can't. Well, I mean, those opportunities weren't there, but I mean, I, yeah, I don't, that part didn't really bother me. I mean, I just figured I'm happy enough doing, give yourself goosebumps and I didn't want to rock the boat and, you know, be a prima donna and say like, oh, I'm out of here. You know? Yeah.

[00:40:08] I mean, Craig got to do, Craig got to do the executioner though, um, uh, in Terra Tower, uh, for retening Terra. But he also didn't, he didn't do anything like slappy or like, like the really, really, really popular ones. And they didn't really do it until they got to those very later ones. Probably the most popular one he got to redo. Like Body Squeezers was like a serious 2000 book and obviously was towards that declining time of goosebumps.

[00:40:35] But yeah, like you don't really see much from the other artists that did slappy or like curly or the haunted books. Well, I gotta say, it's just so cool to like, to see those different interpretations of Tim's characters. So like, you know, your art of curly there, that's like just a really interesting, like way to see how somebody else draws that character. And, uh, very recently Craig drew slappy for the very first time. And that was interesting to see his version.

[00:41:02] So I would, I would be interested in just seeing like, um, how all these different artists, you, definitely you and Craig, um, because you guys get to touch those characters. But, uh, you know, just seeing how you, how you guys would draw them. Um, they'd be interesting. So I have a second, I had a second opportunity. Okay. To do curly. And this was going to be for goosebumps magazine cover. Um, which I mean, I don't know. You guys are the collector side.

[00:41:31] I'm assuming it eventually came out. Um, so the first sketch is just, that looks him on a beach. Oh yeah. That's awesome. That looks familiar. Okay. That looks exactly like, um, I think it's hilarious that he's flexing when he's a skeleton. Yes. So yeah, they didn't quite like that one as much.

[00:42:00] So then it went to a second version, which, uh, see if I can line this up. We had the dogs on the other side. The dog. He's got a drink. Okay. He's drinking. Okay. And then, then they said, Oh, can you add some people playing volleyball in the, in the background?

[00:42:25] So I've got a, uh, some skeletons playing volleyball in the background. Oh, that's so cool. Okay. And then they said, Oh, we can't really see them. So maybe have him flexing with some friends. They're starting to look kind of more pirate like, but, um, that's what I was thinking too. With the beach and the sky. This is pirates of the Caribbean right here. Yes.

[00:42:54] And then they're like, no, we don't want guys. Can you put two girls next to him instead that like at our admiring, admiring him flexing. And that was kind of weird. I just kind of feel a little, a little, uh, you guys talk about how he's flexing when he's all bones. Didn't mention how there's sunscreen at the bottom there.

[00:43:20] Just the fact that I had to try to balance the bikini on, you know, the skeleton. The skeleton. Kind of just. Yeah. And then finally they were like, okay, just go with the girls, but put them way in the back. Cause they're kind of too, too creepy up front, but still skeletons. Um, anyways.

[00:43:44] And at this stage after, after all these versions and then they, they killed it. They're just like, Oh, we're, I think we're going to use stock art. So it never went to a finish, man. That's so unfair. I want to know. Really at the beach. Like, is there a magazine? I mean, like, I almost feel like I saw that before. Like I had to have seen it's like somewhere.

[00:44:13] Um, you guys, there's probably one of him at the beach or something. Like, I'm just trying to think of them all in, you know, in my head right now, but there was a lot of scary. I'm going to say there was a lot. Uh, was there a goosebumps magazine though? There was a goosebumps magazine. And we, uh, we actually talked about this in a previous episode, uh, when we talked about the goosebumps fan clubs, but yeah, it was called the goosebumps scare zine and it came

[00:44:41] with a goosebumps collectors club. So basically they used images of curly for, um, for those covers, but one of them, I reckon it was one of them sketch, like, you know, it's the same. I think I'm going to say probably one of the scare zines. I've got heaps. Like I almost feel like just flipping through them going, which one could it have been?

[00:45:09] I mean, unless they used it for other promotional material, I'm not even really sure. I just feel like I've seen it, seen that sketch before somewhere. Um, yeah, man, who knows? Well, my first goosebumps t-shirt that I ever got as a kid, like vintage was a, uh, tick tock your dead. Cause in Australia they use some of your, um, Oh wow. Give yourself goosebumps covers on t-shirts like in Australia, like license.

[00:45:39] Wow. Oh man. I had, I had a tick tock your dead and I had a trapped in batwing hall t-shirt like vintage ones. And I still got the target, I'll get tags on them. Wow. Well, interesting. So I'm assuming you're in Australia. Yeah. Okay. So probably three quarters of the way through my run.

[00:46:03] Um, my agent sent me like a pack of fan letters and they were almost all from Australia. Wow. They were all specifically because of the, give yourself goosebumps. And I was like, I, like, I couldn't comprehend, like, I don't understand why these are all from Australia. You know, it's like a t-shirts here. Wow. Yeah. I had, we had t-shirts and it's weird.

[00:46:28] Cause like, I haven't seen any other give yourself goosebumps, like clothing, like with those images on, they always use like, not only wanted mask, whatever. But then for some reason in Australia, they did t-shirts at target that featured the give yourself goosebumps books with your arm. Yeah. I was going to say, I don't recall ever seeing those here in the States. No. I mean, I even saw stuff that like, wasn't even a book cover.

[00:46:54] Like it was like a glow in the dark shirt that had like a bat on it that I used to have that had said goosebumps, but it wasn't a part of, it wasn't like battling hall or anything. It was just literally a bat. Um, so I mean, like they had shirts with nothing to do with the book covers, but that's crazy. I didn't know they had those in Australia. I will, I will find the, I will find it. It's in my videos. Like, cause I've done videos where I showed everything, including the t-shirts.

[00:47:21] Um, but I, I will find surely there's going to be one for sale. Some, I don't know. Cause like when I, when I do, uh, looking for goosebumps stuff, I've never come across one. I mean, not to say that, um, those people maybe not just ship internationally. So, I mean, it could just be a scenario where I can't see it. I'll see if I can quickly find a picture of it. Oh yeah. That would be awesome. I'll show you.

[00:47:49] I've got them in my collection room, but they're in like tubs. Cause I keep, uh, you need a scavenging equipment to go in there. It's funny because like, I've been on video calls with him before and we're just chit chatting. He's going through stuff and he'll forget. He even had something. He's like, Oh, he's like, I don't remember this. He's like, where did I get this? Where did this come from? Like, that's the problem.

[00:48:20] Okay. So we're, we don't even need to get into it, but in terms of the character Ultraman, which is what I collect. Oh, that's how I am. I have like, yeah, garage house, everything bins just full of stuff. And anytime I go to Japan and I buy something, I always think, Oh, I don't think I have this. And then I come back and I have like three of them already. Right. Yeah. No, that's, that's him. Oh, Oh, there we go. Wow.

[00:48:48] So this is in Australia right now and selling for $316. Whoa. And it's a 1996. And if you scroll over, you will just, just be able to make out the target tag made in Australia. Yeah. Wow. They had licensed, give yourself goosebumps shirts in Australia. And they had literally that one. And that week. Um, because I bought, it was when I bought a lot of stuff.

[00:49:18] From a market back in 2007, the lady had so much stuff and she had a few t-shirts and those were some of the shirts. So yeah, they were featured. That is so cool. If you do me a favor and send me that link. You want to buy it? No, no, no. Why? I want to, I want to at least grab the image. Yeah. Oh yeah. I don't know if I want to spend $300. Probably not. I wouldn't spend that kind of money.

[00:49:45] It still has the, yeah, like the tongue. Because a lot of them, kids like cut the little thing off. But this one's still. So that's actually, it's really cool that it still features. But yeah, I'll save the link. So, uh, getting back on track. I actually did want to ask you. Yes. Um, what, what are the Goosebumps covers you did? Would you say that you're, you're probably the most proud of or was your favorite, uh, to work on altogether?

[00:50:13] Um, so my personal favorite is, um, the one with the three wolves. I should know the name. Oh, you guys. The Nightmare Old Woods. Yes. That's a good one. I like that one. Anything with whales. Um, I think at the time that was, that sort of fit my style more. Um, just kind of being a little more realistic and then having the dramatic lighting on it.

[00:50:41] Um, that one, that one for me was, was a lot of fun. Um, but I mean, yeah, there's other ones I love. Like, um, you guys are going to nail me on this cause I don't know the names of all the, or the proper names of all the covers. Um, the comic book shop one. A little comic shop of horrors. Yep. Yeah. Well, I was going to say though, cause you, you, you mentioned earlier that, you know, you grew up on superheroes and drawing superheroes.

[00:51:10] So, uh, I, I can imagine that one was very fun for you to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That and secret agent grandma. Oh boy. I would love to see your, um, your rendition of your version of attack of the mutant then, because if you, uh, you love comic books and superheroes villains, like I would actually love to see your version of the mass mutant. Yeah. That'd be cool. I'm glad that secret agent grandma got brought up.

[00:51:37] Uh, if I'm not mistaken, there were many different sketches for that one. Um, yes. Yes. And, and it's interesting because, um, well, you guys have, have sort of shown me or allowed me to see sort of the goose bump community. And I was kind of surprised that a lot of people like that cover and, uh, I, I don't want to offend anybody, but personally, I felt it was like one of my worst covers.

[00:52:06] And I think maybe it's more from a rendering standpoint than necessarily the subject matter. But, um, yeah, I just, it's just not one of the ones that, that I cared for. It's a goofy one. And very much. So, I mean, we were talking about how where the purple peanut butter is goofy secret agent grandma. I mean, that's a goofy cover and a goofy name. It's just a, it's just a goof of a palooza of a book.

[00:52:36] Was there a sketch that you preferred though? Like over the one they chose that you would have much like preferred them to do? Um, probably. I don't have the sketches in front of me, but, uh, I don't know if you guys have, uh, any, uh, screen grabs real quick. Um, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's, that's another example of like, they kind of went with sort of the more safer view.

[00:53:05] And I felt like, um, you know, I felt like some of the other views I gave them would have at least art wise would have been more expensive. It was really exciting for me to illustrate. Um, yeah. And, and yeah. And then I was always sort of in internally, I was always fighting with myself like, Oh, should I make the skeletons more realistic or, you know, or more cartoony?

[00:53:31] And, um, and they preferred the more cartoony. So that's, yeah, that's usually what ended up happening. So I think in my mind, I was sort of like, you know, I want to make these like much more dimensional. And, and, you know, put more dramatic lighting on, on the skulls and stuff, but then they sort of preferred to have something a little more flat looking, if that makes any sense, cartoony style. Um, yeah. So.

[00:54:00] You know, I, again, I, I was a commercial artist, so I, I understood at the end of the day, the client is who's paying for it. And, and that's, you know, that's what they want. So. We actually, uh, well, you had actually sent us the ones for, uh, return to carnival of horrors before the show. So I'll throw them up here and we'll put the, the full HD versions up here for all of you guys at home to see.

[00:54:24] But here we got one sketch and then we got two and then this is the one that ended up getting used for the final cover. That's actually probably one of my favorite ones, to be honest. Like I really liked that one. Was that, was that the last, was that the last one you did? Uh, last one was think I swamp. I'm pretty sure. Yeah. You did do, yeah, you did do one of the black. Yeah, that's right. Yep. You had a zapped in space, which was the first of the, the black spine ones.

[00:54:54] That was the, yes. It did away with the holographic covers and they went on to more of a, it was the last one in the, it was the last one in the, this style though. Yes. Wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. That's what I mean. What I call the mosaic covers. Uh, they, they, they went away with those, which is kind of unfortunate. I mean, I think the black spines look good. They look sleek and I'm sure that's what they wanted. But I don't know.

[00:55:20] Like I said, those like mosaic type covers, man, they, they just screamed nineties and they were eye catching like on a bookshelf compared to all these other flat, you know, baseless book covers. Then you see that it pops. Yeah, it does. So the, yeah, the, the foil ones are kind of more rectangular. I had to do the art in kind of a more rectangular fashion. And then I never really knew where they're going to put the little blurbs.

[00:55:50] So if you look at my compositions, I had to make sure it wasn't too cluttered because sometimes they would end up just putting like, you know, as seen on TV or, you know, or watch goosebumps or, you know, whatever. Or you put these little blurbs all over it and it would just like frustrate me because sometimes they would have me repaint an area, you know, they'd say, oh, can you fix this? And I, and I'd fix it. And then they'd end up putting a blurb over it. And I think like, well, why did I just do that?

[00:56:19] Like you guys just, you could have just covered it up. Right. Exactly. It's, I mean, that's, I wonder if they even knew that was going to be covered up. No. Yeah. No. At that point. Cause yeah. I mean, why else would they? Cause I mean, yeah, it makes no sense to have you fix it and then just cover it up later anyway. Yeah. I mean, you know, I, I guess, I guess after 30 years I can be a little more critical. Right. So, yeah, I mean, definitely, definitely.

[00:56:47] There's so many layers at Scholastic and there's so many, you know, people that are going to have their little say in, in the making of a book cover that, um, that that's what would happen. Right. So, you know, whatever art director, a would see something go, oh no, you got to fix this. And, you know, then we'd fix it. And then art director, it would, he'd approve it. Then he'd go on to the next guy or, you know, whatever. And it'd just be all these different layers.

[00:57:14] And then in the end, um, uh, you know, whoever's the final person to give the thumbs up is, you know, is the one who, who, uh, approves it. But, um, but yeah, there'd be stuff like that. Yeah. And then so too many, too many layers at Scholastic. Like we've, we've, uh, tried talking to them before and the first layer of team loved the ideas we were throwing out for what we wanted to do.

[00:57:40] As far as like putting an actual like convention together to celebrate goosebumps. Cause it's not been done. We had so many of our guests that they want to do this. Yeah. And they were like, oh, that's a fantastic idea. I'm going to include my team. And then it somehow must've got moved up. Cause then the next person was like, no, we ain't doing that. We're shutting all that down from you guys. We're like, wow. Okay. So it was really strange because yeah, you're right. There are just, there's so many layers. Yeah.

[00:58:06] And it's, I think that makes that process a little tedious, uh, to the point where it can actually hinder, uh, good progress for a company when you have that, that many layers. Yes. In my opinion. Well, welcome to the corporate world. Yes. So, uh, I did want to just bring out, uh, Zapton space is just an example of the new style. Uh, but you did do the first, uh, two is Zapton space and then lost in stink eye swamp.

[00:58:35] Um, but I've seen you, uh, do pictures with, uh, this particular one. Um, this one, I really like, I just kind of like the, the glowing backlight on the aliens and just the two headed, uh, creature. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, let's see. Give me a second and I will, I will see if I can grab that one.

[00:58:54] Um, so when we got to that point, um, you know, I already knew that my days on the, on the series were kind of tenuous to say the least.

[00:59:09] And, um, as we sort of talked about earlier, um, a thing called Photoshop was making its way through lots of artists and especially people like me who are doing an airbrush style, which is kind of, you know, more slick looking.

[00:59:30] Um, early Photoshop killed a lot of airbrush artists careers because it, you know, it could just be done very, very quickly, efficiently on the computer. And then that could be emailed and, you know, there's no art to get lost. And, um, if you needed to make changes, theoretically, the changes would be faster.

[00:59:53] Um, although I will say I did try to transition to Photoshop and I just, I hated it. It's just, it's just not what I do. And, and I could, you know, in terms of changes, like I could change it just as fast, if not faster traditionally. Um, but, um, that's still not what they wanted.

[01:00:16] But anyways, when we got into the Zapped in Space, um, the format changed from sort of going rectangular this way, left and right. And then now it was more vertical. So it's kind of big, so I'll come back a little, but, um, that was, uh, that's the painting. Yeah.

[01:00:40] So the, the backlight from the spaceship on the aliens and the elongated shadow. Yeah. They, they also ended up cropping into it. Um, so, you know, I had to make sure there's plenty of room all around it and I didn't know how they were going to crop it. Um, I mean, I guess in terms of this book, it ended up not being that bad.

[01:01:07] Um, yeah, I mean, it's, I don't know. I feel like the reproduction kind of lost a little bit. Um, it kind of flattened out a little. Um, I don't know if it's just, you know, in the painting or whatever. Um, but again, it's, it's another case of, uh, I'll see if I can find the sketches for that.

[01:01:27] Um, uh, I kind of felt like they picked, picked a sketch that was not, um, sort of not the one I would have chosen in terms of, uh, layout and whatever. I actually had other, um, I'll see if I can find them real quick, but I had other versions that were kind of more, um, alien like.

[01:01:54] And, um, and yeah, they just, they didn't, for whatever reason, they didn't want to go down that route. Um, the one that you don't want, why is that? I'll, I'll, I'll see if I can find, um, those other sketches and maybe email those to you guys later. But, um, yeah. Well, one thing I can do really quick is I was able to find the, uh, the sketches for Secret Agent Grandma.

[01:02:24] Um, so there's one of them and then there's another. There's the one that's pretty similar to what would be used in the final. And then we have this one. That's a lot more of a bird's eye view. Yeah. Um, so yeah, like something like that for me, um, would have been more dynamic. I think it would have made for, you know, more of a kind of in your face, uh, cover. Yeah.

[01:02:54] I feel like whenever they picked a safe choice, they always kind of pulled the scene back. So it's almost like you're standing across the street and looking at it. And it's sort of, to me is not, not as exciting. Yeah. Yeah. It needs to like, just be engaging. It needs to be almost three dimensional. Um, I, I mean, yeah, personally, I'm, I think it's more exciting that way, but you know. All right.

[01:03:22] I mean, well, I mean, they, they must have, I want to say given that direction even to Tim later, because if you look at a lot of the series 2000 books, they're all like that. Almost all of them are like that. Um, you know, attack of the graveyard ghouls. It was a prime example, uh, headless Halloween that, I mean, they, he really, at that point, yeah, it was more engaged and having that kind of interaction right in your face. Uh, kind of art. He's literally just like.

[01:03:53] The longest draw as you say, Nick. On any artwork. Oh, and I, I, I, I'll, I'll be the first to say it. Uh, I don't mind. I, I, I do not like that cover. That Tim did. It is terrible in my opinion. Maybe that one needed to be more of an across the street look. Yeah. Yeah. Way far away. Or to the point where you can't even make out that that's slappy at that point.

[01:04:20] It was literally just like the, like you see the whole bed with him, like this, that could have been, maybe it was too close up. Um, speaking of which, it's a little too close up. It's like he had this whole canvas and instead of just like putting sloppy said in his body, he just made it the entire head. It's like, Oh geez. Okay. Well, that's a little much. I mean, when you look at like some of the, and that's the thing, like I guess when you

[01:04:45] get to work on the same character for multiple book covers, um, you know, like you did, I don't know if that's something you ever got to, uh, experience Mark, uh, using getting to redo the same character on different books or anything, but he, he changed the style every time along the way to where you can't even recognize anymore. By the time you get to slappy's nightmare that that was the same one that Tim did way back for the first night living dummy book. It's like, right. Right.

[01:05:15] Well, I mean, I think artistically there's, he's, there's an evolution and, uh, also it could be a time constraint as well. Right. So. Yeah. We, we won't know now. I will say it's funny because like we've had Tim on a few times and I don't mean to talk about him on your, your time here. I just love to go. I love to compare like all the goosebumps artists together because it's so interesting,

[01:05:42] all your different styles and hearing all your different stories and how sometimes they even line up with each other. Like, it's, it's funny to see like how Scholastic just like was so go, go, go, go, go, go, go. We need this. We need this. We need this. Bring it to us now. But then they'll be like, oh no, we're going to change this. We're going to cover this up. You know, as we've been talking about. So, you know, with, with that, it's kind of like, what do you, what do you do though? At that point? You know what I mean? It's.

[01:06:09] Well, I mean, you know, it's again, hate to harp on the whole corporate world thing, but I mean, you know, I mean, I was just taking my cues from my agent and he would say, go, stop. No, you know, do sketch B. No, they changed their mind. Do C. You know, it's just like, you know, like, okay, what am I doing? You know, which one am I working on? And then, and then again, just within my own schedule, you know, I'm doing graveyard school.

[01:06:39] I'm doing, you know, some other corporate thing on, you know, some other project. So literally I had like a paper on the wall with like, you know, all the projects and, you know, when to build them, when they're supposed to be done and, you know, just like constantly checking things off. So I think I couldn't really dwell on it too long. Um, it was sort of like, okay, they're not ready to go. I'm fine. You know, I'm going to move on to this other project because I need to paint this other thing.

[01:07:08] And, um, um, when you're kind of in the thick of it, you're, you're, yeah, you're not, it's, it's no, it's okay. Yeah. It's, it's, it's a time, it's a time management thing for sure. Right. And I think like secret agent grandma. And I know, like, like I said, like, uh, just to close out that thought with Tim was he just, he wanted us to do an episode with him in the future where it's our top 10 least favorite ones of his artwork.

[01:07:38] Wow. So, you know, that's what made me think of like secret agent grandma. I was like, you were like, that's, you know, it's funny how people love that one, but it's like one of your probably least favorite ones. And so that kind of got me thinking, I was like, maybe we'll have to do a, do one of yours, but not just goosebumps. We can, we can go outside of that. Yeah. We can attach in gray bar school or anything else. They're all, they're all my babies. I don't, I don't know. It's like trying to choose your children.

[01:08:08] Exactly. That's what I kind of thought about it. I was like, that's why I thought it was funny. Tim was like, no, I want to do an episode where it's our 10 least favorite ones I've done. Like that's weird, but okay. At least he's honest. Great. Great. By the way, like I had so many of those, like I love the graveyard school. I think who was it? Yeah. Someone's favorite book series. Wasn't it?

[01:08:38] I don't remember. It's one of our, it's one of our friends in the goosebumps. Oh, that's funny. Um, but, uh, it is funny cause it's, it's a po it's a series that doesn't have like, it's obviously not as nearly as popular as goosebumps yet. I find out more and more that these like sort of, uh, I guess sort of rip off sort of, you know, copycat goosebumps series have actually some fan bases of their own and graveyard. One of them.

[01:09:06] Uh, yeah, but it's also interesting. Library Macabre. I think it was library Macabre. It was somebody that we've had on the podcast before. Um, so Cameron Chaney writes, uh, and I don't, did he do the artwork for the cover too, for the autumn crow series member? Maybe he's, but he, I think he's the one who like, he, he absolutely loves the graveyard

[01:09:29] school covers and, um, the, that graveyard school and goosebumps inspired him to, to do his own book called, uh, the, uh, I think it's called the call and crow. Oh, cool. Wow. Um, and it's, I can see where the art style is kind of similar to the, to the graveyard school and goosebumps era. Yeah. So I don't know if he did it himself or he got someone else to do it, but, um, maybe we can show you that here.

[01:09:58] Maybe I can send you something, but it's interesting though. So the influence that you guys have had on future generations of artists that maybe you guys didn't realize you did. Oh yeah, of course not going off of that. I actually wanted to bring attention to this cover because Fifi, the vampire dog is actually, uh, been used quite a bit in recent goosebumps media, um, appeared in the goosebumps movie with

[01:10:26] Jack black and also the recent, uh, television reboot, uh, on Disney plus. And it was the only give yourself goosebumps cover to be redone for a modern reprint. So feed the vampire got a modern re, uh, imagination of this cover. Uh, the only one of the whole series. And, and you do see that the, the jars in the back that the word sugars misspelled. Oh, is it? Oh my gosh.

[01:10:56] You're right. Hold on. I'm going to see if I can get in on that. It's, it's spelled S U G E R instead of A R. Yeah. I never noticed that. Totally on me. And yet it went through all the levels of scholastic approvals and nobody caught it. That's kind of gold. When you think about a book company. Yeah. Uh, misspelling, not catching a spelling error on it.

[01:11:28] That's pretty good. Yeah. I just wonder how many people who like will watch this knew that. Cause I don't think anybody has ever brought that up. I'm curious to know maybe some hardcore groups, any of the chats, nothing like nobody. Some hardcore fan figured that out. Oh, but like, I didn't know that up until this point. Who knows? Don't know the goosebumps wiki. Yeah. It's kind of an embarrassing thing, but. Well, it felt like Tyrannosaurus wrong in Jurassic Park.

[01:11:58] There were, you know, when he's pulling out the little tubes of the dinosaur DNA, one of them was spelt wrong. Oh, wow. Like clearly spelt wrong. It was like the 10 movie mistakes of all time. And like, that was one of them. One thing I do like about these covers, especially yours is just sort of scanning to find all the little details, all the little Easter eggs. Even sometimes like, you know, you do a similar thing to, you know, Tim Jacobus where, you know, you write your, your name and the art.

[01:12:27] And I'm probably not the only one who did this always made it a game to search the art, to find the signature on it. Right. Right. Well, I, you know, I, my, my agent was, again, I have to credit him for, you know, letting me sign them in places that would show up on the book.

[01:12:51] I think early on they were sort of downplaying that this was not Tim doing, doing the covers, but as I was getting into the series, I think they kind of loosened up, which, which was fine. So, you know, that's cool. And real, real quick. Here's some sketches of the peanut butter one that it started off.

[01:13:20] Oh, that one's cool. Think of Carly Beth biting into the sandwich. Yeah. With the worms and whatnot. And then the more, um, the more generic version. Ah. Where the kids just kind of. Oh, that's too bad. Oh my God, I love it. I love it. Let's see. And then we, okay. Then there's another version where they're really stuck on having the kid, but this time he's kind of walking.

[01:13:48] I like that there's a bite taken out of it too. It's actually kind of creepy. It is kind of creepy, actually. You're right. And then, uh, same, same thing, just different angle. Sometimes they would just say, oh, well, let's just have them coming like more towards us. I will love that. Um, let's see. And then, yeah. And then this one's just sort of a variation of the final, final one where he's got a little

[01:14:15] less goop and he's kind of looking, he's not looking at us. Yeah. I did like that. Uh, you're also just curious. You, you said earlier you had a budget to hire, uh, like an actor or whatever to do a model of. Did you, did you have someone to do this too? So that one, um, I'm trying to think.

[01:14:43] I'm just curious if like, you got some like twin mattresses and this like, oh, much to men there. Hey, just deal with it. Okay. I think ultimately I might've used outtakes from another shoot for like the basic shape of the kid, kid's head. But, um, but the rest of it was just, just made up. So. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[01:15:11] So I, I didn't, yeah, I didn't take an actual sandwich or build an actual sandwich and, and you know, that'd be funny though. Mattresses. That's a story. You're going to remember if you did something like that. So I was curious. The extra mile and just put a bunch of goop all over it. Yeah. Let's see. That was 30 years ago. I better go, uh, make sure that kids got out of the mattresses. Right. Yeah. It's just a skeleton. Right. Right. Yeah.

[01:15:41] Um, I did want to ask. So, um, you know, uh, Craig white began with a shop till you drop dead, but you actually made sketches for that book. Um, what, what was the process? Like, did they just tell you that he was going to be taking over? Uh, like, I, I, I, I, hopefully it's not a touchy subject, but I am curious to know. Well, so the irony of it is actually my agent was repping him as well.

[01:16:11] So my agent was fine with it. Right. Right. I'm sure. But again, I, I knew sort of the writing was on the wall when I knew they wanted a different look and they wanted that look to be computer looking. So no matter how well I was airbrushing, it didn't matter. Uh, I wasn't doing it on the computer. So it just didn't have that look.

[01:16:38] Um, so, uh, after stink eye swamp and actually they really liked that artwork, but they were just kind of like, well, we're shifting, you know, directions and it's, you know, we're going to go with Craig. And I was like, okay, that, you know, that's fine. You know, it's like, I've had a good run. Um, but they, I did. So I guess I'm trying to think I'm, you know, 30 years ago.

[01:17:06] Um, I think they told me right after I had finished the sketches of the mannequins, like on the escalators and stuff. So that's why I generated those sketches. Cause as far as I knew, I was going to at least do that one or take that to the finish. But then midway through, they, you know, that was it. Yeah. I got, I got laid off. Yeah. I mean, sometimes it's just, that's just the way it is.

[01:17:35] But, uh, you know, as long as you have a good run and that's the most important thing. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I think one thing again, when I look back on all the different phases that I've gone through with my art career, um, is that at this point I was so burnt out of doing commercial art after about 11 or 12 years. And then just this pace of taking on every single, so I'm freelance, right?

[01:18:04] So I'm not employed by any, you know, company. So of course I never turned down a job cause I never knew if it was going to be a slow month or, you know, or not a slow month, but I was just like, Oh, can you do this airbrush thing? Yes. I'll do it. You know, can you do this cover? Yes, I'll do it. You know, my agent would say, well, but you're already doing three covers. I was like, no, I'll do, you know, I'll do the fourth one. Like, I don't care. You know, like I, you know, I'm making money. I, you know, I'm just, I don't, I don't know if you're not going to call next month,

[01:18:31] but literally after 12 years of doing that, um, like I said, I developed an ulcer. I was just kind of like, so burnt out that in a way, even though Photoshop, Photoshop sort of killed my career in a way, it sort of helped saved me in terms of my health. Yeah. It made me kind of step back and reassess like, you know, okay, what, what am I doing? You know, with my art, do I want to go digital? Okay.

[01:19:00] So if I'm not going to go digital, what am I going to do? And, and it's sort of at that point, and you know, I can speed through the, this part of it, but, um, to that point I was collecting Japanese toys just as a hobby, um, you know, on just, that's what I liked. And I thought, oh, it'd be really cool to do like a magazine that shows these really cool,

[01:19:27] amazing toys, vintage toys from the seventies and sixties and kind of explain it. But in English, you know, not in a Japanese kind of publication. So that's when I got together with a couple of friends and we started a magazine called super seven. And so from my freelance career, I transitioned to being like a magazine publisher. And the one cool thing about that, since I co-owned the magazine was I could still do artwork within the magazine.

[01:19:56] So I was doing, you know, Ultraman airbrush illustrations and, you know, whatever Godzilla and could still publish it. Right. Cause that's, it's our own magazine. So that was sort of my transition away from the commercial art field to just doing sort of more my own thing and, and creating my own, uh, product, so to speak. Um, and then I've, after about four or five years of that, then that transitioned to getting

[01:20:25] toy factory connections. And it was like, oh, you can actually make your own toys, you know, or you can get the licenses to make some of these Japanese toys. And that's what led to Max toy company, which is named after my son, Max. That's why it's called Max toy company. And, um, and that's what I've been doing for the last, last 20 years. Mm. Mm. And that's a great, I mean, you know, to go from art to toy making.

[01:20:52] And as you said, you know, you grew up with, uh, you know, collecting Japanese toys and then you get to make some of your own. I can imagine it's just not only surreal, but just an amazing, uh, experience and just a thing to do for your job. I would. Right. Shatter for your health. Better for your health. Definitely. So after, after 20 years, I'm kind of like thinking, uh, I'm, I don't know.

[01:21:19] I'm, you know, I'll try to do this for maybe another four or five years, but you know, once I hit 65, I think I'm going to retire from the toy world and, and, and go back to art and just do stuff that I want to do. If that makes sense. So just be like, is it too late to tow? Is it too late to go back? Yeah. I mean, I think, and I tell my son this too.

[01:21:48] I mean, of course you want to do something for as long as you can do it, but there's also a point where it's good to just sort of change the trajectory of, of how, of what you're doing. And, and that'll make it more exciting, hopefully. Um, so, you know, I mean, right now I do, I still do a little art for, for the toy company, like for the packaging and stuff.

[01:22:15] Um, real quick, I can, I can show you, uh, we, uh, we put out a, uh, or we licensed this character, which is Ultraman. And, um, so for the packaging art, I was able to do the main character and then he's got some Kaiju in the background. That's cool. It's really cool.

[01:22:43] I've got a friend who, one of my Japanese friends, he is a huge fan of that and he collects all sorts of merch toys and from Ultraman. Um, so yeah, he was, yeah. As you can see behind me. I was going to say you had some competition. It's everywhere. No, I love it. I love, I'm telling Nickel this time, like I'm a huge fan of Japanese horror.

[01:23:08] So, you know, probably the biggest, there isn't even much merch of it, but probably the biggest Juon, the Grudge collection. I think I have like all the little promotional things they brought out, like little plushes and stuff. Wow. And Ringu. I love that. Just the, just Japanese stuff in general. We talk about all the time. Cause like their horror is great. Obviously everybody knows Godzilla and the Kaiju, um, you know, growing up for me, like I, I love Jet Jaguar.

[01:23:38] Oh yeah. Yep. So, you know, I mean, and obviously like, as I got older and found out from Power Rangers, there was the, it came from Japan and of course you never knew that growing up, but finding out about Jiranger and all their other Sentais and, uh, just their whole lore of movie and television stuff they have over there is phenomenal. Well, and don't forget if it weren't for. Far and away better than a lot of stuff here that still gets made.

[01:24:06] Don't forget if it weren't for Japan. You know, when he's in the eighties. If it was Nintendo, you know, a Japanese company, you know, we, we probably would not have, you know, the sort of video game market we have today. So it's like Japan had a, had a stranglehold on a lot of different media, um, back then and technically still now. Uh, so, uh, not at all surprised that, you know, there's such huge fan bases for, uh, Japanese media like that. Not at all.

[01:24:36] I mean, a lot of the stuff that's big in the States is because of stuff from Japan. So, I mean, it's not really surprising. I mean, even when you think of transformers, you know, you probably think that's an American, completely American made thing, but to find out it's really not, it came from a line of toys that I believe was in Japan. Yeah. Um, and then somebody had the idea to make a show out of. So yeah, like I said, power Rangers, another prime example, things like that.

[01:25:02] So, I mean, uh, yeah, I mean, jet Jaguar, Godzilla, Pokemon. Pokemon. Yeah. I mean, the enemy in general, but that's a whole other. Oh, many good stuff. I could talk about Japanese stuff for hours. I thought this was like a goosebumps channel. Yeah, no. No, but I actually do have, uh, I do have a Japanese goosebumps book. I mean, I got one. Yeah.

[01:25:32] I got one too. To be fair. Yeah. Um, I do want to ask two more questions relating to goosebumps. Uh, the first of which being, um, you know, you, you've done, you know, toy making for the last 20 years. So, uh, and obviously it's been quite a while since the last goosebumps cover you did, but has that era of your career, uh, held any inspiration over currently what you do now? Um, like, do you still take any, uh, you know, any, any of the experiences that you had from

[01:26:01] that time period into now? Um, you know, I think for me, it trained me to paint very quickly and to conceptualize, like literally within minutes. Um, so for that, it, you know, it was, it was really good, really good training. So now if I need to come up with some kind of artwork or something, I can pretty much whip it up in, you know, like a day or so.

[01:26:30] Um, and, and also to not be so precious with the art because, you know, you only had a certain amount of time to work on something and then you just have to ship it off. Um, I had a friend during that same time period who was vastly superior to me in terms of artistic talent, but, uh, you know, no, no offense to him, but he would noodle something for days.

[01:26:58] And then I look at it and I wouldn't even know what he was doing on it, but he was just like, Oh no, I had to fix it. You know, like that area there. And I'm like, it looks great. You know, you should send it. And he would miss deadlines because, you know, colors were not quite what he wanted or something. Um, and I appreciated that he was very on point about that kind of stuff. But then on the other hand, in the commercial world, I mean, it's sort of like you, you got

[01:27:27] to hit your deadline and you got to get something done and it may not be a masterpiece, you know, but if they're happy with it, then Hey, you know, we're done, right? Let's get, get to the next one. Definitely. And, uh, I think this goes without saying, uh, you know, I, do you hold a fondness for your time on goosebumps and your, uh, the work that you've done for it?

[01:27:52] I think I appreciate it now more than I did when I was in it. Primarily because when I was, when I started doing it, I was 31 already and like literally a couple of years away from, from having my son. And, um, and again, I, you know, I knew as a phenomenon, you know, I mean, I could, you know, it was in the bookstores and occasionally I would see little news clips like, you know,

[01:28:21] Oh, RL Stein's going to sign here. And, you know, he got mobbed and, but, but it was always sort of, again, maybe since I wasn't on the East coast as well, it always felt very removed for me. And, and I, you know, I would see my covers in wherever Barnes and Noble or, or, or whatever. But again, it just, it felt a little surreal and I was always occupied with other projects that were going on as well.

[01:28:49] So part of me feels like if I could go back in time, uh, you know, I would have collected, collected more things. And, and yeah, I just sort of appreciated more the, the mania that was going on. But, but I think I was, you know, I was just so wrapped up in meeting the deadlines and whatnot. And, uh, um, you know, just then it was over that I moved, then I moved on to the next thing. So, yeah.

[01:29:19] As we always talk about it to, you know, you never know like what is going to become the next big thing. You, you, you, sometimes we, we've talked about this a multitude of times with the many guests we've talked to on the show and, uh, yeah, exactly. And, uh, it's just like, you know, many people come onto it as a job, like at the time, that's just all it is. But then all these years later, there's hundreds, thousands, hundreds of thousands of fans who

[01:29:47] look back on these, these books, uh, with such, you know, like admiration and, uh, you know, dedication in their hearts. Like, you know, like we have, uh, it's just kind of like, I can imagine it's a very surreal experience. Just be like, wow, I can't believe that. Uh, I can't believe that something like this would have become so big.

[01:30:11] So, uh, it's always interesting to just hear about, um, you know, how those experiences evolve over time. Right. Right. Well, and, and, and the fact that, you know, like Bjorn was saying in Australia was this huge thing and, you know, had no idea that any of that was happening. Yeah. Yeah. The art was actually featured like on original, I'm sure it was probably like promotional posters

[01:30:41] or something as well when those books were coming out, because like every series had some kind of a promotional like poster or whatever it might've been. So I'm sure there was stuff going around too. I guess my last question is, so do you think we'll ever get a figurine or a toy of secret agent grandma? You know, did I see on one of your Facebook pages that somebody had made a little sculpt of it? I, I think somebody had.

[01:31:08] So I, I've seen, I've seen some people make like 3d sculptures, uh, or even figurines of, uh, the goosebumps, you know, characters. And I've seen, I did see one, a secret agent grandma. I'll have to find it again. And if I can find it, I'll send it to you. Yes. But, um, no, I've seen quite a, I, I've seen, I think I saw one for like TikTok you're dead. I think I saw, um, yeah, I think I even saw one for, uh, you know, Dr. Eek, I think,

[01:31:38] uh, something like that. So definitely. And, uh, I'll see if I can find it, but I'm almost positive there hasn't been something like that. Um, I have a funny, a funny real quick thing. If I'm, if I can add about Dr. Eek. Um, so the test tubes that are on the table, uh, that are like by his feet. And then there's like a little rack of test tubes. Um, I don't know. Is this kind of a kid's show or maybe not?

[01:32:08] Yeah. I'll be, I'll be, I'll be sensitive in my description, but they kept telling me like, um, you know, don't, uh, don't make them look like condoms. Like, you know, just, you know, make, make sure, you know, the liquid is blah, blah, blah. And, you know, I won't get into, won't get into those details, but anyways, it was, yeah. I mean, I was just like, what are you guys talking about? You know, it's like they're test tubes. That's incredible.

[01:32:38] It's like, they're shaped like that. Right. I can't, I don't, you know, it's just like what they look like. Maybe they just didn't want like a Disney thing, you know, cause back in the nineties, Disney artists were sneaking in penises or whatever else, you know, into the artwork. So they were like, Hey, no condoms on this cover. Yeah. Well, that's the one I was referring to. That's the most well-known one, but I know there was other ones too that they did.

[01:33:08] So there's other, you know, arts that we didn't really get to talk about today just for the sake of time. One, I will bring up really quick is a deep in the jungle of doom. Yes. I love this one. If beware, the purple peanut butter was one of the first I ever saw. This is actually one of the first I ever read. I remember seeing this in a school library and I was just like, you know what? I gotta, I gotta read this. And I, I think I went through like at least 10 of the endings and I was just like, all right, you've sold me.

[01:33:38] But I'll never forget this like fish man coming out of the water. Yes. That, that is in my top five of, of like what really fit, you know, my groove and my, my style. Um, and you know, definitely like a creature from the black lagoon vibe. So yeah, definitely for sure. But, uh, so many good ones. Screaming evil genie, uh, uh, the wicked wax museum, uh, beastly babysitter.

[01:34:09] Like just, it's just a bunch of really, really good ones. Um, Oh, I didn't like the beastly babysitter. So really? Uh, why, why, why didn't you like it? I, you know, I, I just, I didn't understand like, why is this giant rat ringing the doorbell? You know, like I, it just, you know, I just sat there thinking like, Oh, I don't know. What am I supposed to do with that? You know? Mm-hmm.

[01:34:35] So that was, I think was a rat wearing like a skirt or something or yeah, it was like, it's kind of like just your typical like dress that like, you know, sort of a nanny would wear, but it's this enormous rat. Uh, and then you got like the kid peeking into the blind. How freaky that would have been. Like that giant. I was just going to say, it just kind of looks like master splinter's grandma or something. Like that would be terrifying.

[01:35:00] And I, I cannot go without mentioning this one night in screaming armor. Um, my favorite. This is a great one. This one, I love the moon. Just the moon is just such a great image. Uh, and just, uh, I also liked the little bird with the, the night helmet on. So that was anything more of like, um, oh my gosh, like the, uh, clash of the Titans. Yeah.

[01:35:29] They all clash of the Titans. Bill, Bill, Bill, the, yeah. Yeah. So, um, the bird was a last minute edition. So I had finished the painting and I sent it to them. They're like, yeah, great. And then also a couple of days later, they're like, okay, it's coming back to you. Cause we want you to add like a bird. I was just like, where? Yeah. So yeah. Circled the little area.

[01:35:57] And then I had to, yeah, I had to do a separate sketch for the bird and, and, and stick them in, paint them in. So I just like that. It is just like a little, a bird night. It's just like, all right, if I'm going to draw a bird, I'm going to draw a weird bird. Yeah. Yeah. No, no. I can't take credit for that. That, yeah. They, they specifically told me to, you know, make him look like he's wearing armor and all that kind of stuff. So definitely.

[01:36:28] Yeah. So many good ones that we, we didn't even get a chance to really, really delve into, which is just another reason we'll have to probably do this again sometime and bring you on to talk more about it. Yeah, for sure. But I guess one final thing before we wrap things up for the night, you know, to all the Goosebumps fans who are watching this, you know, what do you, what do you have to say to like, just all the fans out there who grew up with these books and by an extension, your artwork?

[01:36:53] Yeah, no, I'm, I'm so excited that, that there's like a community out there for these books and, and especially for the artists. I mean, I think, you know, like a lot of things, no offense to R.L. Stine, you know, but I feel like parallel to that in the comic book world is like, of course, Stan Lee gets all the accolades and glory.

[01:37:21] But, you know, but to me, the artists are sort of the hardworking guys, you know, that are putting the actual images forward, like a Jack Kirby or Steve Ditko, you know, all the original guys. And so, yeah, I'm so happy to see that, like Tim, Jacobus and, and, and Craig, you know, everybody's getting at least a little recognition for, for, you know, what they've contributed to the, to the brand.

[01:37:50] So, yeah, it's, it's very cool. Yeah. I mean, you guys are, you know, very positive about it too. So like R.L. Stine wrote the stories, but I always say this, you guys are the ones that give life to the characters. You literally bring them. It's the hook. It's the hook to reel the kids, the readers in. Yeah. We've said it on here before and I'll, I'll a hundred percent back it. I mean, we've said it to Tim, but he's like, swears.

[01:38:19] There's like, Oh no, you know, it's dying. I'm like, no, I was like, I didn't pick up a goosebumps book because I read it first. I picked up the goosebumps book because I saw the haunted mask and the art drew me in. Yep. I was like, and then I read the book. Yeah. There's even books like I haven't read that I just bought because the cover looked amazing. The art looks good. Yes. Didn't even read them. They just wanted to collect them because they looked collectible.

[01:38:48] They just were like, Oh, I might be guilty of that. I wholeheartedly agree with you on that one, Mark. It is to me, the, the artist. And that's why we do these artists series to Heidel. Yep. Definitely. People who did that. Thank you guys. Yeah. Yeah. I'm good thing. I signed the covers. Yeah. And we know, then now we know who, who is to, who's to blame. And we'll have to remedy that situation of you not meeting Tim or Craig.

[01:39:18] We'll have to make sure that happens. We'll have to do like a, yeah, like an old straight deal or something. That'd be cool. That'd be awesome. It would be like a battle royale. Yeah. Who, who could draw the best covers? Well, if you guys, if you guys have me on again, I, I, I know we're running out of time, but I do have an Animorph story as well. So I'll save that. I'll save that for next time. Oh yeah. Next time we're going to talk about that.

[01:39:46] Cause I know some people who are dying, would be dying to hear some Animorph stuff. Yes. I, I, I was hired to do the first cover, which. Really? Obviously went, obviously went to a computer artist. Yeah. Well, those damn computers are going to take our jobs. I swear like the Animorphs books are so iconic, but I see people just make fun of the covers now. Cause they're like the mid morph. Well, they're all.

[01:40:17] It's like the mid morph character just looks so hilarious. Yeah. Yeah. Like, like, like a, like a potato with eyes or something. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, for that era, I mean the guy, you know, I know the, or I don't know the guy, but I know of the guy who was doing the covers. I mean, that was like a, you know, combination of off the shelf software and that's. Yeah. Yeah. That's the look. Just how it is.

[01:40:46] But that's art for you. But, uh, with all that said, we're going to go ahead and end off this episode of goosebumps crew here. Super, super special things to you, Mr. Mark Nagata for joining us tonight and talking some goosebumps with us. We, we really appreciate your time and talking with us. Cool. Cool. Thank you guys. Yeah, absolutely. And, uh, for our audience at home, uh, is there any social media websites that our audience can find yet? Sure.

[01:41:14] Um, I don't update my art site, but you can go to marknagata.com. Uh, if you want to just see some of my past illustrations. Um, currently I sell and make Japanese inspired toys, kaiju. Um, and you can go to max toy code.com. Um, that's M A X T O Y C O.com. Okay. And I will make sure to leave, uh, links to all those in the description below, uh, and

[01:41:43] where you can find, uh, Mark over on Instagram and Twitter. So make sure you give him a follow. And, uh, as always, of course, make sure you follow Bjorn and Nick at Goosebumps, Saucyfan, and Sean, respectively. If you liked today's episode, make sure you have a like and comment, subscribe to us on YouTube, follow us on our audio platforms and our social medias. All those links are in the description below. Also check them out. We'll have another episode for you guys next week, but until then, this has been the Goosebumps Crew podcast. And from all of us here, want to wish you all as always to take care, stay safe, and have a very scary day.