Howling Good Time (ft. Marieke Nijkamp)

[00:00:01] The most thrilling, frighteningly series ever! From the pages of R.L. Stine's best-selling books, and the screens go on forever and ever! We now return to Goosebumps!

[00:01:05] Greetings Goosebumps fans, young and old, big and small, living dead and undead. Welcome back to the Goosebumps Crew Podcast. As always, I am your host, Isaiah Vargas. I'm joined by my good buddy, Nick Shaw. And we are the Goosebumps Crew. We're back to talk some Goosebumps. If this is your first time joining us here on the Goosebumps Crew Podcast, I want to sincerely welcome you all. If you are or have ever been a fan of the popular Goosebumps series of books or the monster franchise that they spawned, I have a feeling this podcast is going to be right up your alley. As I always say, me, Bjorn, and Nick, some of the biggest Goosebumps nerds on the entire planet,

[00:01:35] we can talk about Goosebumps for hours on end. That's exactly what we do here on this podcast. Every week we have a brand new episode talking about everything Goosebumps, whether it be the books, movies, TV shows, video games, merchandise, whatever it is, if it has Goosebumps in the name, we're going to talk about it so much that the word Goosebumps is going to sound alien to you. Like you're just going to never want to hear about Goosebumps ever again. So with all that said, if you end up liking today's episode, make sure you have a like and comment. Subscribe to us on our YouTube channel if you're watching us on YouTube. Hit that bell notification.

[00:02:04] We get new episodes every Wednesday at noon central, 1 p.m. Eastern. If you're dying, however, to get these episodes early, you can catch the audio versions only on our audio platforms. We're available on platforms such as Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, iHeartRadio, wherever you get your podcasts. Those episodes go up every Tuesday at noon central, 1 p.m. Eastern. And of course, you can follow the Goosebumps crew on social media. We're available on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, and Facebook. You can also follow Bjorn and Nick at Goosebumps saucyfan and Sean,

[00:02:32] respectively, on their social medias and their YouTubes. All those links are in the description below. So check them out. Join the Goosebumps crew today. Become a crew member. We appreciate in advance for your support. So for all our listeners at home, if you've been with us for a while, back in the summer, we did an episode talking about Goosebumps Download and Die. It was one of the four Goosebumps comic arcs from IDW. IDW is a very big popular comic and graphic novel publisher. One of the biggest, if I'm not mistaken.

[00:03:02] And that was a great episode. And today we are revisiting another comic arc from IDW. This time it is Goosebumps Secrets of the Swamp. This was the fourth and final comic arc for now. Anyways, I certainly hope there's more from IDW. And it was released in 2020. The trade paperback came out in 2021.

[00:03:24] And we're very excited today to talk with the author of this comic arc, Marique Naikamp, bestselling author, New York Times. Thank you, Marique, for joining us today. Welcome to the Goosebumps crew. I'm so excited to be here. Absolutely. We're excited to have you. We're really excited to learn more about these awesome comics because as far as I know, these kind of went under the radar a little bit. You know, a lot of people don't know about these comic books.

[00:03:53] And we did our episode on Download and Die. And I got to learn a lot of great information from there. So we're very excited to learn about this one. But before we get into that, as I said, you are a bestselling author. You've been doing books since 2016. You did books such as This Is Where It Ends, Before I Let Go. You did graphic novels like The Oracle Code and Critical Role, Vox Machina. Can you tell us a little bit about how you started your career as an author?

[00:04:24] Yeah, sure. So I've basically been that kid who was always writing even when I was small. So I decided I wanted to become an author when I was, I think I was 11, 10 or 11. And I've basically been writing ever since, always with the aim to be a published author one day. But I had to make it through a whole lot of really bad words before I got to the better ones. But yeah, I've always wanted to write. I've always been a big fan of books.

[00:04:55] And I honestly kind of stumbled across the story that would become my first book, which is This Is Where It Ends. Because I'd always been a big fantasy and science fiction nerd. And then I realized that I also really like writing thrillers. And that's sort of where my career started. And obviously, This Is Where It Ends did really well.

[00:05:19] So I have a lot of amazing readers, which also helped me find my way into writing IPs or writing in different existing universes, which has been an absolute joy. It's basically, it honestly, it feels like writing fan fiction of all those universes and worlds that I love as a reader and that I now get to play in. Definitely. And I've seen that you've done graphic novels for, of course, you mentioned The Oracle Codes, which is a DC comic.

[00:05:49] There's also, you've done two, I believe, for Marvel Comics, one of them being a Hawkeye graphic novel. Yeah, I did Hawkeye for Marvel. I've done a Vifission online story for Marvel. And I recently, in Marvel Pride, did a Gwenpool short story, which is a lot of fun to do. That's awesome. Really cool. And it's so cool to just like, you know, start out and have a really big success. As you said, you know, sometimes you just start off with some, not everything's going to be perfect.

[00:06:18] You're going to make some slip ups. But, you know, you get there in the end and then you kind of just hit the ground running. So I'm very happy to hear about all that. But of course, as we said, you were the author on Goosebumps, Secrets of the Swamp. As I said, this was the fourth IDW comic arc. There was Monsters at Midnight, Download and Die, and The Horrors of Witch House, and then Secrets of the Swamp.

[00:06:43] So I got to ask, did you have a sort of a connection to the Goosebumps books before writing this comic? Did you grow up with the books by chance? I mean, I was a 90s kid. So I definitely, I grew up with the books. I also grew up with the series. I scare very easily. So I was that type of kid who, you know, read the books by daylight. Because that just felt slightly more comfortable to me. And I mean, I'm Dutch. So I mostly read books in translation.

[00:07:13] So I wouldn't be able to tell you anything about like series order or things like that, because I basically just read whatever made it to my local library. And anything that didn't involve dolls, because dolls just freaked me out no end. So I've always like felt drawn to like werewolf stories, things like that. Like the more legendary types of stories. But yeah, I definitely knew Goosebumps going in.

[00:07:42] Well, I guess then it's been confirmed that we probably won't be getting any books about Slappy from you. Nope. That's wonderful. I'm very glad to hear. And that's the great thing about Goosebumps is that it was translated in over like 40 languages. So like it was everywhere. It wasn't just, you know, the US and Canada and whatnot. Those were probably the biggest locations for it.

[00:08:08] But it was all over the world, especially back in the 90s. So, I mean, it's just awesome that it transcended generations and, you know, just different countries. Yeah, it's really fun to when I talk about this book here in the Netherlands. Like when I mentioned Goosebumps as the title, most people don't necessarily know what it is.

[00:08:32] But when I mentioned like the translated title, everyone around my age will go, oh, I've read like at least three or four of those books. Like everyone knows at least a few of them. And that's really cool to see. Definitely. And how did you get involved with working on this book? So these IDW comics had multiple different writers and artists working on them. How did you get to be the writer of this story?

[00:09:01] So I think there was a bit of a gap between the first three and this one, too. But I honestly like I grew up reading comics. And again, anything that was translated and made its way here in terms of like American superhero comics and things like that. But also a lot of European stuff. And I never really knew that writing comics was an option for me until I got to write the Oracle Code for DC.

[00:09:31] And at that point, like, I mean, I'm like an avid comic-con goer. And obviously, as a general fantasy geek, those worlds overlap quite a bit. So once I started writing the Oracle Code, I quickly just fell head over here, fell in love with the idea of writing more comics, of playing around with this format. And it just fits so well with the way I approach writing in general.

[00:10:01] And I met a few people at IDW at Comic-Coms. And once I was done with Oracle Code, I basically just reached out to them. It's like, I want to keep doing this forever. Do you have anything cool I can work on? And we went back and forth a bit. And I don't even remember if we were talking about different things at that time. But someone mentioned, someone asked if I would be interested in writing a Goosebumps comic. Because obviously, the first three were out by then.

[00:10:31] Which is why I think there's a bit of a gap. Because it does take a little while to, you know, create all the amazing art. And I should definitely point out that the art for this was done by Yasmin Flores Montañez. Who just did fantastic work and continues to do amazing comics. But, yeah, they brought it up as an option. Obviously, too. Because I have the experience in writing for teens and writing for kids.

[00:10:57] And so that helps having that age awareness. And I immediately jumped at the option. I was like, yeah, my inner 90s kid is so happy right now. I would love to do this. So, yeah, that's how that happened. I've stumbled into most of my comic books so far. And it's been really fun.

[00:11:23] But, yeah, I think part of that also is, just to finish that up. I think for me writing IP, writing in different universes, one of the things I want to do is I only want to write IP if I at least have, like, a good sense of what the world is like and what the universe is like. And if I feel like I can do a story justice. Because I just, I love what you're doing with the podcast.

[00:11:50] And I think it's so amazing, like, to be such big fans of something. And I, like, feel that way about other IPs as well. And as a writer, I just want to make sure that if I tackle something, I can do it justice for everyone who loves it. So, I think there were a few other options. And this was the one where I was like, yeah, I know this well. Or at least well enough that I think I can write something that's cool

[00:12:17] and that works in, like, the bigger world of Goosebumps. Oh, and the great thing about Goosebumps is that because it's an anthology, you can basically do whatever. It's basically a toy box of different ideas, characters, locations. So, it's almost limitless. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. When we talked with, for example, Jen Vaughn, who we interviewed in our episode on Down and Die,

[00:12:45] she was the head artist, illustrator on that book. Yeah. And she told us, like, there were many ideas for, you know, the stories that we wanted to do. It was like, oh, we wanted to do one with monster blood and deep trouble and stuff like that. And we decided to do something closer to Sage, Cheese, and Die. So, it's like, you know, there's so many different ideas that you can possibly do for Goosebumps. Nick, you had a quick question?

[00:13:14] Yeah, so you had talked with IDW and got this all laid out. And I'm so happy that worked out because, honestly, between all four arcs, this one was my favorite because, again, I'm more drawn to the werewolf stories too myself. Outside the Haunted Mask, of course, it's like the werewolf stories are probably my favorite. But, I mean, so with the layout, did they tell you that it's going to be Secret to the Swamp? Like, did they already tell you as a werewolf story?

[00:13:43] Or was it something that you actually had some input on? Yeah, no, I was basically free to pitch anything, as long as it was, like, you know, Goosebumps related. And I think, as you were saying too, it's such a wonderful toy box of potential stories. And I think one of the things I like about the comic arcs in general is that it's such a fun way to take, you know, some of these older stories too and sort of translate them

[00:14:13] or riff off of them and present them to, like, a newer generation of readers. So that's something I wanted to do with this particular book too. Like, basically going in, there were a few options, I think. So I think it might have been one of them. But yeah, I was like, we're definitely not doing haunted dolls. No, thank you. But yeah, there were a few options.

[00:14:39] But it was mostly in terms of, you know, we could go in this direction, we can go in that direction, take werewolves and, you know, run with it. But basically from that point on, I can just, you know, have fun with the story and pitch a few years and go back and forth and see what worked best. And yeah, I knew going in that I love werewolves. So I wanted to do that. But I also really like the idea of sort of, you know,

[00:15:07] playing with the whole concept of monsters and what monstrosity looks like in different shapes and forms. And going off of that, so of course, going off of the title, the main inspiration for this arc was on the werewolf of Fever Slump. Definitely the most iconic werewolf story in the Goosebumps universe. Absolutely. Absolutely. What did you, I guess, quick thoughts on this book? I mean, I'm assuming you've read it.

[00:15:37] What did you think of this book? I read it so long ago. So it was, this is definitely one of those books that made it here into translation, I think. But I read it years and years and years ago. But I think, you know, it says a lot about the staying power of the book that as soon as we got talking about it, there was this, you know, thought in the back of my mind of, you know, going back to Fever Slump and playing with that.

[00:16:07] And it is such an iconic story. And it's, you know, the thing I loved as a kid, reading those books was always that twist at the end and that feeling of, you know, never quite finishing the book or having occasionally just having to put it away at the end and just leave it on a shelf somewhere far from my bedroom because it just freaked me out too much. And not in a bad way, but just that sense of like,

[00:16:36] I think that's part of me as a writer too. You're continuously thinking about, okay, what happens next? And the beauty of these books is that it leaves you pondering that and it leaves you thinking about everything that comes after the book. And I think Where I Will Fever Slump just, to me, really triggered that, okay, but what now feeling. It really did. It was, it's one of the most iconic and it's one of the most,

[00:17:04] I guess visceral is the word I would use because it's a story that's very, very suspenseful. It's in a great location. A swamp is a great spot for a werewolf story because the swamp in and of itself, especially at night, is a very creepy location and definitely like the last place you want to run into some sort of inhuman creature. Yep, absolutely, yes. Definitely one of the best TV episodes too, I would personally say.

[00:17:33] One of the best two-parters. It was just, it's such a creepy concept. Yeah, so good. But for this story, it's, as you said, it's almost kind of like a retranslation or recontextualization of that story because this book is a little more of a werewolf story that takes a more sympathetic approach. Yeah. I guess spoilers for anyone who hasn't read the story. It's been a few years. It's been a few years.

[00:18:02] But basically, the story is that the main character, Blake, is moved into, not moved into, visiting her aunt in Fever Swamp for the summer. And basically, she's coerced by another kid named Lily into going into the swamp because there is supposedly monsters in the swamp. And they find out that there are monsters. There is a whole pack of werewolves that are living in the swamp.

[00:18:31] And at first, it seems pretty typical werewolf stuff. It's just like there are werewolves in the swamp and they want to supposedly attack you, kill you, and all that stuff. But it takes a 180 and you find out that the werewolves are just like regular people. They're just trying to survive and they're hiding out in the woods because there's a bunch of hunters. So it's almost like she gets caught up in this turf war between these werewolves and these werewolf hunters.

[00:18:59] So it takes a very different approach from the typical monster story. What was just kind of the inspiration for just going this direction for the story? I think it's a bit twofold. On the one side, there's just this... I wanted to write a story about werewolves, but there's always this trying to make something a little bit different than expected. And I feel like that fits with Goosebumps stories in general.

[00:19:28] But I was approached as trying to figure out where are a few potential twists and ways to turn the story around. And I think I'm also just, as a reader and as a person, very fascinated by... I majored in history in college and focused a lot on storytelling through the ages and especially storytelling in medieval times.

[00:19:57] But I'm just very fascinated by the idea of how people write about monsters as a sort of stand-in for the other and the other can be anyone who's different than you are. And I wanted to take that aspect and play with that a little bit and see the humanity in the monsters and also see the monstrosity in humans,

[00:20:28] which maybe goes a little bit deeper than a fun five-part comic. But that was continuously in the back of my mind. And that's just something I'm very fascinated by. And I think it's something also that fit well with Blake because she's a gamer girl. She also has a prosthetic hand. And that makes her a bit different and that makes her one of those people who gets underestimated a lot and who gets bullied too.

[00:20:58] But people look at her and think she's different because she has. Yasmin made her a very cool prosthetic. We went back and forth on that a bit too. But that makes her different and that makes her, in the perspective of many people, the other two. So that was having that main character

[00:21:23] also made me want to play with those themes a little bit and see what would pop out if I shook it and then held it up above my keyboard. Definitely. I do need to say that the idea of making the story a little more complex is not actually that foreign to Goosebumps. It happens quite a bit. Yeah. No, for sure. Yeah. No, I absolutely agree. And I think that made me comfortable to do that

[00:21:53] in this particular context as well. But there's also the part where you have five episodes or five comics with a limited number of pages. So you have to find a sort of balance between what you can show and how far you can go without. You also don't want to be in a position where you start explaining everything you want to do. So it was fun to play with that and see where it landed for sure. Yeah, definitely.

[00:22:22] And a comic book is different from a novel because a comic book is a visual medium in a sense. You have to rely on the... Obviously, the dialogue helps to tell the story too, but you also have to rely on the artistry and the illustrations, which I might as well ask. We've talked a little bit about her up to this point, but I got to ask, what was it like just working with Yasmin, who was the illustrator on this comic?

[00:22:50] I mean, it was so much fun. I have been incredibly lucky in my career so far that I have had a click with all of the artists I've worked with. But yeah, it was really fun to... Because like you said, this is such a visual medium. And because we wanted to occasionally mix things up a bit and do things slightly differently, we talked a lot about things like, how do you portray those wolves?

[00:23:20] Like, what do you focus on? How do you create little details that connect between the people and the human sides of those same wolves and what they look like when they're wolves? And how do you design a prosthetic hand that looks cool and gamer-like and even things like, you know, how would Blake approach gaming in the first place since she has one hand that she can use for gaming? What does that mean for her setup? Things like that.

[00:23:50] So we had a really good time figuring out those details, but she also just did such an amazing job at portraying Fever Swamp and making it creepy and giving that constant sense of forward motion and that sense of running through the swamp at night yourself. And that was a delight. Definitely. I just love the use of the cooler colors for the most part.

[00:24:20] It gives it a very creepy feeling, but it's also very easy on the eyes. It just really fits for goosebumps. But then, for example, like you have an instance like this. Like the Scooby-Doo at night timing vibes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yep. It definitely is like that. It's just, I don't know, you really have to get sort of that visual storytelling right to not only advance the story, but just be fitting with the themes. Yeah.

[00:24:50] And I feel like the cooler colors not only make it feel creepy, but it's also like in a way adds to the sympathy because it's not like harsh. Like it can be toned down so that it's like, it goes from a creepy blue to a more like light, comfortable blue, like that sort of thing. Yeah. That's the power of that visual storytelling. And I feel I really have to agree,

[00:25:18] you know, it was just done so well for this comic and all of these comics, you know, all these comics have super talented, super amazing people working on them. And, you know, it's, I just love, you know, these adaptations of Goosebumps stories when they get these graphic novel comic adaptations. Yeah, same. Yeah, I really enjoyed reading the other three too. I have them somewhere in,

[00:25:48] on my shelves here, but yeah, I, I really love them. And it's fun to see too, because obviously these are comics meant for younger readers primarily. So it means that you also have a sort of limited amount of detail. You want, you want to have like clear lines, clear action, things like that. So it's actually, I'm just super impressed by, by artists who can, who can take that and run with it. Um, I always say I have the easy job of just figuring out the words and sort of give a sense

[00:26:17] of what I think a page would look like. Um, but all I have to do is, you know, write it on paper and they have to do the hard job of actually drawing it. So, um, I'm, I'm, I just get to sit back and enjoy the process as well. Yeah, definitely. Um, I do want to ask, uh, so we mentioned how, uh, Werewolf of Fever Swamp was the main inspiration for the story. Um, but the great thing, another thing about these comics that was so cool is that they were recontextualizing, uh, the stories,

[00:26:47] but they were also mashing them up in a sense. Um, one book that I personally picked up on as being another inspiration is another werewolf story and that's Werewolf Skin. Um, yep. Now, uh, correct me if I'm wrong if it was intentional or not, but you know, the whole plot point where, uh, Blake basically tries to lure away the hunters by wearing a wolf pelt, um, just pretending to be a werewolf. But the whole twist at the end is that the wolf pelt is alive and it,

[00:27:17] you know, turns her into a werewolf. So I was like, it has to be some clear inspiration, uh, from Werewolf Skin. Yeah, yeah, I, I, what I wanted to do with Blake is, is, um, and, and that was why it was so nice to have Werewolf Skin as an option too. like, I wanted to give her, like, I wanted her to be very active in the story and, and, and, you know, give her a, an active role in, in fixing what was going on. Um,

[00:27:48] and give her that agency too. And I think having, having her run around with that pelt just did an amazing job. But then obviously things have to go wrong because that's, you know, it wouldn't have been a goosebump story if everything had happened, had ended happily ever after with no complications whatsoever. Um, and, and that field felt like such a fitting end too because it's such a conscious decision that Blake makes in helping her friends and realizing like what, um,

[00:28:17] side she's on in this, in this turf war. Um, and I, like, again, like I said, as a reader, I was always very curious what would happen next. Um, and even as a writer of this book, there's still like this, this tiny little voice in the back of my mind that's so curious to see what, what Blake will do with these, these, uh, you know, newfound powers and, and newfound, um, uh, wolfishness. So, yeah, I'm, I'm,

[00:28:47] I just, I think, for me, it felt like a very fun way to end the story. Um, but, yeah, I'm, I'm also still curious to see what would be, what will be next for her. Yeah, definitely. That's always back to you. I think what, uh, what were you saying before? Like, I really liked the fact that like the endings always have that twist and leave it open-ended for the viewer or the reader, you know, whichever way you're going with this. But like you said, you got to kind of

[00:29:16] play in that sandbox a little bit and you got to do what you thought after fever spot, maybe with a little werewolf skin put in, which was really great. Um, because those are probably the two most iconic werewolf stories Stein's done. Uh, yeah. In reality, um, at least the two that most people gravitate to. Yeah. And for good reason, they're great stories. Uh, absolutely great story. They were great episodes in the nineties as well. So it's really interesting to see that. And then you left it

[00:29:45] open-ended for potential, you know, so you're kind of continuing that, which is really great. I like, I really liked that. Um, that aspect of goosebumps, I don't think was lost thankfully in any of the comics, but especially this one. Definitely. I'm glad to hear that. Glad to hear that. Yeah, that was, that was definitely my intention too. And it's, it's such a, like I said, it's such a cool aspect too. And it's, you know, who knows, maybe, maybe somewhere down the road, someone else will pick up, will pick it up and, and, sort of go take it from there.

[00:30:15] Um, but yeah, I also, I also just think it's so fun for readers to have that, that, to have those open endings and have that challenge almost to consider how they would take it and like, what would be next for them. And that's, uh, yeah, no, that's fun. It's something that can end the story off on a, you know, either a really dark or a really goofy note. Um, it's been done in just about

[00:30:45] every Goosebumps book, but it's also, again, it's like what you said, especially for kids, because kids got great imaginations and leaving that open ending just allows them to, I, I certainly know I did, like whenever I, you would get to an ending like that when I was a kid, like I would just be like, oh God, what would happen? Yep. Yeah, for sure. And it's, it's, it's so fun. It feels like a way to respect the reader too, to have those open endings. So obviously like it's, it's fun to have twists and, um,

[00:31:15] clearly as a writer too, okay. Occasionally I just want to, you know, surprise my readers or shock my readers or, um, things like that. But I like that this is such a quintessential elements of all of those Goosebumps stories and it feels like a really nice way to take your reader seriously and to sort of toggle their, their creativity. So, uh, yeah, no, I love it. I love the subtle foreshadowing to it too, because after she puts on the pelt, she goes to save, uh, which is one of the, uh, uh, the werewolves

[00:31:44] and she looks at Blake and I was like, you know, are you wearing, nevermind. And then, uh, later she was like, well, you can have this back and she's like, it's a part of you now, you keep it. And it's just kind of like, oh, okay. And it's like, oh, wait a minute. And she was quite serious. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yep. No, there's no avoiding that anymore. Yeah. It's like, touche. Um, and it's also like another thing is just kind of like, well, you know,

[00:32:13] no good deed goes unpunished. Pretty much. Pretty much. So I do think, like, at least personally, I think obviously there's going to be a lot of complications there. I think part of it is like, I can imagine Blake just loving it and running through the swamp at night and just having fun with her friends. So, um, I think initially she'll have a really good time. And then at some point there was, something will start to dawn and she'll be like, oh, wait, this is, this is not just a fun outing. This is, uh,

[00:32:42] this is going to be a challenge when I get back home. Yeah. It's like, uh, it's kind of similar to how great he was in the book of where we were swamped. It was just like, turn the werewolf at the end, but instead of being like horrified by it, he was just like, oh yeah, this is great. He's like, I mean, wouldn't you though? I mean, honestly, yeah, being a werewolf would be pretty cool. I'm going to say. Yeah. Yeah. But like, I think it will be, but when you consider the fact that, uh, you know, it was, uh,

[00:33:13] Will's parents were gone. And so you just kind of assumed he probably killed them. Yeah. I mean, it's very, uh, very open-ended. It's a much darker turn. If it, if this went into the fear street novelization, rather than goosebumps, I could take a turn for him. no, for sure. For sure. There's a reason why I stick mostly to goosebumps and not so much fear street, because those were, that was horrified me. That was, you know, that was way more intense.

[00:33:42] A very, uh, yeah. The joy of having an overactive imagination and have, and reading those books at night and just being like, Oh shit, what's happening. Oh man. I remember that. Um, fear street was such a different beast. It's, it's amazing to me that like, it's, it's gotta be kind of like a switch. Like when he's writing goosebumps, like, I feel like, did he ever overlap and be like, Oh, well, I'm, you know, this is way too much for goosebumps. I need to pull this back. You know, maybe he was in fear street mode or something.

[00:34:12] Cause he was writing so many different novels at the time. Like it always made me wonder if he accidentally like crossed into one and how to be pulled back maybe by the editors, but we had Susan Lurie on here and she said, I barely ever had to really edit any of his stuff. She's cause she still edits a lot of his stuff today. Like he's been with them. I think since she's the very first. Well, there's a few times, you know, like girl, she said there was a few times going to be a, he was going to eat kids, but then they were like,

[00:34:42] that's too intense for goosebumps. So they changed it a little bit. Turtles and crickets. And I think Stein was like, honestly, that's more gross. That's more gross. Yeah. So. So have you ever had that though? I mean, do you primarily, you primarily write for though, the, the, the teen audience, correct? Like the teen kids. So you don't really dive too much. I mean, I, I do do kids books these days too. So it's like,

[00:35:12] I write young adult books and, uh, middle grade. So like 10 plus and 14 plus roughly. Um, and occasionally adult books as well, but, um, yeah, there have been a few moments where I think mainly because I've, at this point I've done more young adult than I've done middle grade. Um, and occasionally you do have moments where you're like, Oh, I could, if I were writing for a different audience, I would take this,

[00:35:42] you know, I w I would sort of left here or I would, you know, go a bit deeper or, um, challenge the main characters in a, in a more like visceral sense. Um, but I think the beauty of writing for younger readers, especially that like 10, 11, uh, age group is, uh, like we were talking about before too, they have such a vivid, vivid imagination. Um, there are so many ways to make a story like creepy or make a story go almost as, as,

[00:36:12] as far as young adult would go, at least in terms of, you know, details and adding meaning and adding like questions about the world. And that, that's the thing that, you know, just inspires me. Um, there's a lot you can do for both age groups. You just have to handle it in a different way. And obviously there are things that you don't want to be writing for, for young readers. Um, but there's like a lot of questions you can ask them just in different ways. And as long as you, uh,

[00:36:43] keep those two separate, I, I haven't, I haven't really found myself in a situation where I really had to, you know, dial back or turn down anything or to actually delete chapters and, and try again. Um, but you do, do have to, uh, remind yourself that you're, writing to readers in a, in a very specific kind of way. And that, um, and that you should stick to that. But in my case too, it helps that I'm mostly writing fantasy for younger readers and I'm mostly writing like contemporary thrillers for older readers.

[00:37:12] So it's, uh, the vibe is so different that there isn't a lot of overlap. Um, but it does, it does occasionally surprise me that some of the questions about like, you know, where do you fit in, in the world and, and what does, what does friendship mean? Uh, like what, what is, what is fairness for this? Like all of those questions you can ask in, in wildly different ways, but you can talk to kid readers and talk to teen readers and have super serious

[00:37:42] conversations with both of them because they do think about so many, so many things. Um, you just have to make sure that you, you know, handle it correctly. But yeah, I think it, it, it, I never, never felt like I had to zone down anything or, um, you know, go in a completely different direction or something like that. Um, but I also don't write stories quite as gruesome as fear street. So there is that. Not in that sense. I mean, like there is that,

[00:38:11] there is that age where like you, you can write for like the, the younger audience, maybe, you know, between six and nine. And then you kind of get into this little bit of gray area where they're, uh, a little more understanding, but also at the same time, you don't want to push it too far to where, you know, beyond their reach. So you do get that little gap there. I feel sometimes, um, and I, that might be a little hard to navigate because you don't want to like, and to put it, I guess in, in terms of like,

[00:38:40] when we talked about Stein's writing, you don't want to like talk down to them, make them feel like, okay, this is just too much of an easy read. I'm beyond this, you know, but you don't want to jump straight into fear street. So it's kind of like, absolutely. Yeah. You don't, you know, you don't want to scar them for life essentially. Right. Yeah. yeah. You know, no, but yeah, kids are smart though. Like you, you don't want to patronize them.

[00:39:11] One of the things I found as, as a writer. And I think that that probably shows in, in a secrets of the swamp as well. Um, I think kids do really well when you, um, when stories help them ask questions, but don't give them the answers. And that's, that's one of the things that I, I just, you know, remind myself of often. Um, this is like, it's so easy to be that, like, know it all adult who will explain how the world works. Um, but first of all,

[00:39:41] I wouldn't have listened to that when I were a kid. When I was a kid. Um, I don't think any of those would. Um, and it's also like, again, when, when I write books, I want to take my readers seriously. Like I want to respect them and meet them where they're at. Um, I don't want, I don't want to be that person who, uh, you know, tells them out about, uh, you know, what it was like in my day or kids these days. Or anything like that.

[00:40:10] I just want to want them to have a fun story that challenges them and that helps them ask questions and, you know, toggles their imagination and creativity. And, um, I, I'm not here for the answers. I'm here for the story. And, and hopefully that helps. What was the writing process, uh, like what, was it like fully plotted from the beginning or was it like you were going chapter by chapter? No, it was definitely fully plotted from the beginning.

[00:40:40] Um, and, and that's one of the reasons why I like writing comics so much anyway, because that's how I approach all of my books. Um, I, I need to know what happens basically on every single page of a book or at least every chapter or in, in, in this case, every, every, uh, individual comic before I can start writing a book. Um, it just needs to be able to hold that whole story in my head so I can figure out where all the details need to go. Uh, so in this case too, we,

[00:41:07] we had the entire arc plotted out before I started writing the first issue. And, um, there's always, there's always this, you know, you, you, you do sort of navigate the details and sort of fine tune while you're writing. And occasionally you'll, um, write, like write a description or write a, like a panel description or, uh, Yasmin would add like something in the illustrations where I would just be like, Oh, this is fun. Let's bring this back later on. Um, but those are,

[00:41:36] those are like smaller details and the whole overarching story was, uh, was settled on before I started writing. Uh, and I do want to ask, uh, so one of the main, uh, things related to the main character, Blake, uh, and we've talked about it to this point is that, uh, she does have a prosthetic arm and, uh, she is, uh, in Canon, the first goosebumps protagonist to be disabled. Um, was there any personal, uh, stakes or desire to include representation for disabled,

[00:42:06] uh, individuals? Uh, yeah, for sure. I mean, I, I, I, I have, uh, chronic illnesses. I'm autistic, so I very much, uh, care about seeing good disability representation in, uh, in, in, in books in general. Um, and it's something I, you know, that's, that's always in the back of my mind. And I, that's something I always bring with me whenever I'm, um, writing books.

[00:42:30] And I want kids who pick up these books to see themselves reflected in, in, in all ways and shapes and forms. Um, so I think this, I, I was pretty clear early on that I really wanted to write a disabled main character. Um, I don't have experience with prosthetic limbs, or limb differences. Um, I did have a very good, uh, sensitivity, sensitivity reader who read for that, who, you know,

[00:42:59] read for that from their own experience and, uh, pointed out a few details. Like there was a, there was a scene in like early drafts of, one of the first issues, I think where Blake is running away and trying to, you know, climb trees. And, um, I think she's hanging from her prosthetic at some point. And my reader very gently pointed out what it, a, what it feels like when, you know,

[00:43:26] your prosthetic gets hooked on something and it slips from your, from your arm. Um, but also what it could do in terms of like how much weight it could bear, um, just based on, on the design that we went to. And it was, it was really fun to talk about things like that and details like that. Uh, because there's, you know, that also means that you occasionally can play with, um, you can bring that to the story as well. And, and, and create that sense of, of, um, you know, uh,

[00:43:55] making it as realistic as possible to that experience. Um, but yeah, it was also just generally kind of wild to me that there hadn't been any disabled, like main characters before. Um, since quite a few kids live with like chronic illness and disabilities or mental illness or things like that. And I just wanted to, you know, have that be a part of Blake,

[00:44:19] have that be a part of her while she's having cool adventures and while she's doing what she can to save her friends. Um, and, and just show that like disabled kids can have, can have those adventures too. Definitely. I was actually going to mention that because it's like, you know, despite, uh, despite her disability, it doesn't stop her from being the sort of, uh, sort of person that she is from really like, uh, just jumping into the line of danger, essentially when it matters most.

[00:44:49] Like she is in a situation where she's not necessarily at fault for, uh, you know, the conflict that happens in the story, but she also doesn't have to be there or have to contribute, but she does anyway, because she knows it's the right thing to do. It's, it's always been a kid empowering property. You know, every main character is a kid. Um, and they're the ones, whether they want to or not, um,

[00:45:17] who have to save the day in some aspect. And many of them succeed. Some of them don't go exactly the way they plan, but you know, again, sometimes that's just how goosebumps is. But at the end of the day, it's empowering kids and in extension, the reader, um, to be more adventurous people. Um, that's why it's like, you know, goosebumps may be a scary property, but it's,

[00:45:44] it's really pushing kids to face the horrors of reality. Um, there's obviously, there's no werewolves in real life. At least, you know, I, I don't think so, you know, but, um, but it helps them to prepare for adulthood and, a story like this. I feel it really resonate, especially with those who, who do suffer from disability, um, to not let that stop them from being who they are. Yeah.

[00:46:14] And I think part of it too, is that, um, like one of the reasons why Blake is so understanding of, of that, like werewolf community is because she knows what it is like to be ostracized because she knows what it is like to see as, as, you know, weird and, uh, not good enough and, um, whatever awful things people can say about people, like about disabled people. Um, so there's, there's obviously the sense too of like,

[00:46:42] she wants to help her friends because she's been not in that position, but she's been in very similar positions. And that, like that to me was, was so important that, that she does things like not, not because of her disability, not despite her disability, but simply with her disability. And that informs how she looks at the world. Um, but she's also very much her own like whole person where that is a part of her. And, um, I don't think it should like completely, uh,

[00:47:12] overtake her as a person. I also don't think it should be completely diminished, like minimized. Um, it's just a part of her and that makes her who she is. And that's, uh, I was really glad that, uh, my editors were super supportive of that and that, uh, we could, we could have, I can include that and, um, hopefully make, make kids who pick it up feel seen as well. Mm-hmm. I definitely agree. And I, I feel like it did. I, I personally feel like that goal has reached. Um,

[00:47:41] I do want to ask really quick, there's a little more of a lighthearted question, but, um, outside of, you know, goosebumps, you know, you said you really like, you know, werewolves in general. Do you have a favorite werewolf story or even a, a movie, uh, werewolf related? Oh, gosh. Uh, Oh, that's hard. The hardest part about this is that I, I always blank whenever, whenever people ask, like it's, it's the, like, what's your favorite book? And your brain immediately goes,

[00:48:10] I've never read a book in my life. Yeah. I, I genuinely think, and that's not, I'm not saying that because, because we're on this podcast. Um, but I genuinely think that like werewolf of fever swamp and, and werewolf skin were very essential to, to me as like a, a tween teen reader. Um, so I think that those are very, like, uh, those are very much the, the werewolf stories to me, uh,

[00:48:39] growing up at least. Yeah. and, and yeah, definitely to the point that they were, they were in the back of my mind for a long, long time. Um, um, yeah, and beyond that, uh, just quickly looking at the books around me. I mean, I guess if I had to shout out a movie, I would say probably the best werewolf movie for me is American werewolf in London. Um, yeah, that movie, that, that movie is great. it, great effects too. Like,

[00:49:06] that's probably one of the best transformations of a werewolf ever put the screen yet to be dethroned. In my personal opinion. Um, you know, we just got a remake of Wolfman that just came out, which unfortunately is not very good, which is a shame. I was actually kind of like pumped for the trailer, but yeah, no, I get that. I think, I mean, this sounds like such a,

[00:49:33] such a nostalgic thing to say, but like, werewolf of fever swamp was so good in the nineties. And I don't think I necessarily want to see remakes of, even if the, the effects are so much better now. And even if we can do so many more things in, in terms of making like those transitions stand out and make it more natural, like there's something too about those sort of like almost called like, um,

[00:50:01] like adaptations of, of the book and of many werewolf stories at that time where I, I just like that. It's slightly, but it's not perfect. I think that that adds to the charm as well. Yeah, definitely. No, it's, it's very campy in a sense, but that is what makes it so entertaining. Like it's not goosebumps seeing Shakespeare, but it doesn't have to be either like that. There's a,

[00:50:29] there's a beauty in just embracing what you are and, and, um, you know, not trying to make it any, anything different. What would you say is, uh, your favorite part of a secret to the swamp as a story? Like, what would you say is probably the part you really enjoy the most? I, I think I really liked those last few pages. Um, just because we were, we were also going back and forth a little bit on figuring out how can,

[00:50:58] how we could make that like that, that, that end twist stand out and give it that, you know, quintessential ending. Um, cause you don't want to linger on it too long. You don't want to go any much further than like Blake's aunt calling out to her and Blake realizing that, oh no, there's, there's so many things happening right now. Yeah. Help. I really, I really enjoy that sense of, but what now? Um, it's just like,

[00:51:27] what the hell do I do? Yeah. So that was really fun. Um, I also really liked, let me see if I can, I can find it real quick. Um, but just creating that, um, that, that sort of secret werewolf hideout in the swamp. Um, and part of that too is just like, obviously it's, it's been a few years since, since werewolves, uh, werewolf fever swamp. Um,

[00:51:51] part of that too is also the idea for me that like things are clearly happening there. At which point do like, do we go from, there's a werewolf or there's a few werewolves to, there's a community of werewolves. Like, is there a sort of, um, sort of moment where people have just decided or, or, you know, local werewolves have just decided, oh, this swamp is, is, is pretty good for us. We're going to settle here and make it our home.

[00:52:21] And I, I'm just really fond of that idea. I really liked the idea of this is, this is our little hideout. Now, this is our little hideaway. Um, so, so having that, having that, that, having that for them and showing that, like showing the burrow, in, uh, in the swamp was just, was so much fun. I really enjoyed those places. Nice little cabin in the woods, that sort of thing. Yep. Just, just hanging out and, and being werewolves together away from the rest of the world. Like,

[00:52:51] I feel like we all need that, need that sense of community. Occasionally I need that sense of, uh, you know, let the, let the world be the world. We're just, um, you know, happy here. We're, we're with friends and we're with, with our like family or found family or whatever that looks like. And this is our little safe hideaway from everything else. And that was, that was just really fun, especially contrasted with like the, the, the, the sort of creepiness of running through the swamp and,

[00:53:20] and not feeling like you have anywhere to go. Um, it was, it was nice to have that, that sense of, uh, homeliness there. Definitely. Definitely. And I guess, uh, one last question, this is sort of just, uh, for fun. Um, you know, you did, uh, this story secrets of the swamp, but if you ever had the chance to tackle another goosebumps comic, uh, are there any other books you would have interest in maybe taking a crack at? I,

[00:53:50] I think it would depend a bit. Like I would love to do another goosebumps comic. Like let's, let's be clear about that. Um, I would jump at the chance to, to, to write another one. Um, but I think I would have to, like there's, there's not necessarily a single book right now that, that jumps out at me. Um, there's a few elements that I really like, like, uh, I was thinking recently about writing,

[00:54:18] just like plotting a few books and then sinkering with a few ideas. And, um, like I, I love liminal spaces. So I really would like to do another amusement park type of scenario, something like that would be really cool. Um, but yeah, there's, there's, it, I would have to find the right story. And I think that, that might just be a matter of, you know, leaving through titles again and leaving through books and,

[00:54:48] and, and looking at the few I have in, uh, on my own shelves and, and maybe just going back to the library and just get a sense of, is there anything that, you know, triggers me right now that I really want to jump into? Cause, um, yeah, there's, especially with, with stories like these, um, like I said, I, I would love to write another one. since I'm not entirely sure I'll get to do that. And I'm not sure what the like current status is of, of these comics. Um,

[00:55:17] I think I would get too distracted by allowing myself to think about that in depth now. Um, yeah, I think, I think I would, I think I would levitate more towards like creepy spaces in this case. Cause that sounds almost like a horror land almost, uh, you know, yeah, I think, yeah, something like that. That'd be, that'd be cool. I, I'm just, I don't know. It's,

[00:55:44] it's every time I go to like an amusement park or something like that. that's just, there's such overly fun spaces. And I enjoy going to amusement parks, but there's, there has to be some kind of like almost dark on there. Like on the current there. Occasionally it's all of it is so loud and colorful and over the top. Like there's always this part of me that immediately thinks, okay, but what is actually happening?

[00:56:13] Or just like, what if all this, like all this loud environment was suddenly quiet. Like there was just no area. There was nobody there. Exactly. So, but like I said, that is, that is just like, for me, if, if I were off with another one right now, I would say I would go, I would likely go for amusement park. I would likely do something like horror land. Um, but I genuinely don't know what, what like the story would be,

[00:56:42] or if I wanted to find some sort of like mashup between, like another book and like, yeah. So that's, that's as a, as a setting, I'm so fascinated. I would love to play that, that space at some point. Horror land is a great place to play with. So I would certainly hope you get another chance at, uh, doing a goosebumps comic. Cause you know, Steve's a swamp turned out really well. And, uh, you know, I feel like you would really do good at another one personally.

[00:57:10] So hopefully sometime in the future, you never know. You never know what the future is. Fingers crossed. Well, we're going to go ahead and end this episode of goosebumps crew off here. Murry, thank you so much for joining us and talking goosebumps with us. It was an absolute pleasure. Oh, thanks so much for having me. This was such a joy. Absolutely. And we'd love to talk with you again in the future. So, you know, we'd be open to bringing you back on. Hey, here's it. If that horror land comic ever happens, um, I will happily be back. Wonderful. Well,

[00:57:39] fingers crossed for that. I'll leave a link, uh, to Marie's, uh, website in the description below. So go check it out. Uh, follow her on any social media, just show her the support. She really does deserve it. Uh, we really do appreciate getting the chance to talk with her. Of course you can follow Bjorn and Nick at goosebumps. Awesome fan. Sean respectively. As always, if you like today's episode, make sure you have a like and comment, subscribe to us on YouTube, follow us on our audio platforms and social medias. We'll have a brand new episode for you guys next week. But until then, this has been the goosebumps crew podcast from all of us here. One,

[00:58:09] wish you all as always to take care, stay safe and have a very scary day. And.