Down The Middle Episode 61: Is Professional Wrestling Dying?

[00:00:13] Welcome everyone to Down The Middle. I know you thought we were gone, but we're not gone. We're back. We're here again. Much like we hope the per-wrestling industry will be. That was starting to sound more and more like Rick Flare's career. I'm back. I'm back.

[00:00:31] And audio check is good. This podcast is about to you by Stevie Wicks. We'll talk about them more in a moment. But now, damn it, Brian. You know how long it's been since I've actually sat down. Well, that's not true. I sat down and watched some last week.

[00:00:49] This is like sat down and watched a full week of professional wrestling. I don't know because it's been a minute for me too. You know, we had an episode we did earlier where we were talking about how watching wrestling

[00:01:05] feels like a chore. And for the most part, it's not as bad as it was. We want to go ahead and get that part out of the way. It's not as bad as it was.

[00:01:17] That's thanks to a large part. Ironicly, the WWE who we were complaining about the most at the time we were last complaining. But who it's... And it's especially sad because we're still prepping to do our massive all-in review.

[00:01:37] But as I'm watching it, in particular because it's the match I watched most recently. The Kenny Omega first spending the Don Jr. Match. You know, at first I was thinking, I'm probably just being nostalgic. But I gotta say back in 2018,

[00:01:59] that match was so much better in every element. And I do believe part of it was the fact that well for one, back in 2018 it was like, oh we've never seen this before. You've never seen

[00:02:15] those two and you weren't exactly sure if you ever would see those two in a ring together. But even frankly, even the match itself, I know Jim Cornett would have something to say about it. But

[00:02:32] it was way better than what we see in AEW. Currently, and I'll go more in-depth into it when we talk about all-in. But man, like even there's moments in the match that you wouldn't think

[00:02:45] these two would do. I eat, for example, they're trying to keep it in the ring. There's a moment where PennTegon does a dive, but it makes sense because he catches Kenny off guard with it. And then

[00:02:58] Kenny goes for the Terminator dive and PennTegon gets back in the ring and rocks him. There are just things that make sense, and that's why it was good. Now I haven't watched full gear yet. I don't know. Did you watch full gear?

[00:03:15] I'd see some snip clips here and there but not too much. I initially wasn't going to, but now after hearing about some of the matches, I'm more inclined to check it out. I hear

[00:03:28] the in particular sort of strickland and hangman page was good, but you set me a clip. I heard that match tore it up. That night. Like tore it up? Well, I'm taking it with a grain of salt because it was a death match. And I know you love

[00:03:42] death match wrestling, but let's be honest here. How many times have we heard, oh, this death match was amazing match of the year? It's true. And I'm not taken away from what the guys did at all.

[00:03:55] I never, ever, ever would do that. But was there and I can't answer this question because I haven't been watching religiously, but was there any buildup to this or was it just they went

[00:04:06] out there and tried to kill each other for 25, 30 minutes? Exactly. And that's, I don't know. I hope there was a buildup for as much as they did to each other and to themselves.

[00:04:19] Although I will say I saw one screenshot of Hangman doing the triple H thing, but with blood. I mean, it was paper view. So I'll give them that. At least it was on paper view. But

[00:04:33] I don't know if that was necessary. I didn't see that part. So I'm not sure. Oh, and then we've got, oh, you've, you've been here before. And I remember I, Hakeem, I remember

[00:04:48] Hakeem, the Hangman match was the match in the night for me. Good to know, maybe you can answer this, Hakeem, was there buildup to it or was it just somewhat of a random pairing?

[00:04:58] I'm, I'm very curious. But I hear good things. But anyway, the clip you sent me interestingly, highlights one of the few really, really exciting things in wrestling. And one of the few things that's making wrestling good right now was MJF at the media scrum post full gear.

[00:05:17] Now, I will say at the beginning of the clip, I thought we were getting a, I thought we were getting the real max freedmen. But there were a couple things he throws in that I love it because MJF is a

[00:05:30] master of making you not sure if it's real or not, because there's a couple of things where I'm like, oh, well, that's a joke. But then he's so good at what he does. And the best way I can describe

[00:05:48] it is, I think we got a little bit of both. I think we got a real emotional max freedmen who had enough sense to stay in character and further storylines while putting everybody in the company over and just, yeah, I definitely agree. Like it definitely hadn't

[00:06:09] me on a seat of thinking like, is this like the real MJF or is this like, is this the character MJF? Like what do we get now? We get a mix for both. There we get like the real MJF.

[00:06:23] I think we're getting a mix of both very similar to a bunch of really great moments you can think of. But the promo with Roman Reigns and John Cena comes to mind where

[00:06:36] it started out as a work, but I think we got a little bit of the real from each one. You know, the whole it's called a promo son if you're going to be the champion going to have to

[00:06:47] that to me is when pro wrestling is at its best. When there's as Jim corner, I'm going to butcher this some it's not a direct one, but Jim corner, I'd always say something is like you give

[00:06:57] them enough information that they know is true. They being the audience. You give the audience enough information that they know is true and then you work it a little bit so that they're not sure because you've already given credibility and seeing punk was a master at this too.

[00:07:11] Oh yeah. Hakim is a there was buildup, Swarve went to Hangman, Swarve went to Hangman's house. It was like the time Samo Jo went to AJ Styles house. Okay for those of you remember back when

[00:07:24] TNA was good. Well good as in better than I still make the case there was time when TNA was very, very good. I will definitely agree that I will 100% agree TNA at one point was better than

[00:07:38] all wrestling and this would have been like 2009, 2010 era. I watched a little bit from 06 and I thought I don't know that it was necessarily better because WWE I know a lot of people disagreed

[00:07:51] me WWE in 2006 was actually really really good. Oh yeah. It was very good and I'm not saying TNA was bad but I mean I don't think TNA was necessarily better than although that's about the time

[00:08:04] Kurt Engel came and gave them a little bit more legitimacy. Like not that they were illegitimate because you already had AJ Styles and I believe Steam was already there at that time. Yeah Kurt one over there and actually a fun fact Kurt was supposed to win the ECW

[00:08:17] World title before he went over to TNA. Oh yeah I'm sorry Hakim just commented again said I haven't been watching AEW much but man that was good but I had one scene with the blood that

[00:08:29] made me a bit sick was it the when Hangman was spitting the blood up because yeah I saw the screen shot of that and I was like I'm not particularly squeamish but that was a little as a little gross

[00:08:40] but yeah man I just I'd love to know your opinion Hakim because I assumed that you're a pretty regular wrestling fan if you're watching this podcast because I'm in the same boat I haven't

[00:08:51] really been watching AEW at well at all lately because I mean it just it's just yeah I just don't care I got agree with you like I have a few friends that I talked to also like about wrestling

[00:09:11] and like there are like huge AEW guys they watch AEW more than they do like any kind of other wrestling promotion and like they're telling me that they're like to the point where they're getting

[00:09:21] ready to just watch an AEW and part of me I shouldn't say I feel guilty but part of me is hesitant like I want to start making a conscious effort to actually watch AEW because I remember what

[00:09:34] it was like without an alternative and I don't want to go back to that but part of me kind of does because in here's what I mean by that if you remember I'd say between the years of 2016 2018 maybe

[00:09:48] a little bit of 2019 but mostly between like 2017 yeah 2016 2018 I would say when it was really really big where you know people would say things like WWE's the only game in town I'm like no they're

[00:10:02] definitely the biggest game in town but they're definitely not the only I remember when in JPW was the clear number two but you also had ring of honor was still not necessarily thriving but it was there

[00:10:14] you know and they had some I argued for those two years without a shadow would doubt wrestle kingdom was way better than wrestlemania way better for from 2016 to 2018 you I I will argue it you honestly you're probably right because there's a lot of water down fuse going on

[00:10:39] and then he came responded again he said same here it's been man mainly because of the lack of story like that's what I'm saying we I posted a short the other day it's the first

[00:10:48] short I've uploaded a long time I apologize for that people I'm we've got multiple podcasts in the network and there is one I'm not gonna lie there is one that is the main priority because

[00:10:57] it's the closest to getting monetized and then we once that happens we'll keep bringing down the line but I promise I will make I'm doing some things so that I'm able to upload more

[00:11:07] content consistently across all platforms and one of our videos got taken down I have to fix that and it's the one I was most proud I was most proud of the thumbnail on that one so I was really

[00:11:17] really mad when I found that they took it off but anyway the point I'm making is we uploaded a short the other day where all I said was the secret to great progress as long as not a secret this man says

[00:11:28] it all the time and then I just laid it out it's basic you give people the example I gave was you take a match that say like going back to AEW because I mentioned the rock versus Hogan

[00:11:44] where what's happening in the ring may not necessarily be exceptional from a physical standpoint but every wrestling fan knows that match every wrestling fan has seen that match and if you were

[00:11:57] watching that match alive you were on the edge of your seat you wanted to see what was going to happen you didn't care nobody cares that Hogan didn't do a Topece Oceita or a moon salt it was never

[00:12:11] gonna happen but the leg drop had people jumping out of their seats and it's the same leg drop we've seen across decades we've seen it hundreds of times and yet that because of what was built

[00:12:28] up and that's a Shawn Michaels can get a place to erupt with a super kick the young bucks have to do 20 in a match to get anything out of people that's a bit facetious but my point still and then

[00:12:40] the other batch I talked about which was Kenny Omega and Hanged Man Page and I said don't give me wrong the match was great from a physical standpoint they're both incredible athletes in the ring

[00:12:53] and I will never say otherwise but what made that match as good as it was was the build up to it by the time that paper view came around you wanted more than anything to see hangman page

[00:13:09] kick the living crap out of Kenny Omega and as much as I dislike to heal Kenny the process worked for something like that was that's what we're doing here me yeah I can yeah like my sound is

[00:13:28] like really really low for you oh that's weird it was fine and it is all sun just but real low huh I hope it wasn't on my end am I good now I think it was I think it was on my end but

[00:13:40] yeah because for a second you were cutting out a smidge but so anyway that was my point and that short is it's still getting views and almost 100% likes so that's what that's what I hate

[00:13:53] and it's not just wrestling it's almost everything because there's a very very vocal minority and unfortunately trends are set by it so there are a lot of people that are saying like a

[00:14:03] he w's perfect and they can do no wrong well if a w's perfect it can do no wrong why are their ratings going down and why have their ratings never been on par with w w and before you tell me

[00:14:16] a bs answer I'm going because fox might be a little bit different but let's look at raw rose on the USA network and I think I'll even be conservative let's say their average I think

[00:14:28] their average rating is probably like one and a half million that's a low average around there yeah that's a low average a w dynamites average viewing I think is about I'll even be I'll be gracious there about 850 to 900 thousand now I think that's been

[00:14:49] trending up but I'd say as a whole over the past year and that's their peak that's not even I'd say that's not even an average it's either average is probably more like 750 to 800 but

[00:15:01] my point being they're both two hour well-ross three hours but they're both two to three hour programs on a cable network and I think you can actually make a case that TBS might be bigger than

[00:15:17] USA I don't know but my point is these are both wrestling programs that are on a cable network so and I get WWE has the name value but at a certain level wrestling is wrestling

[00:15:34] and especially where WWE programming was at a certain point in time I see no legitimate reason why AEW couldn't have overtaken them in the ratings if they had just given people good

[00:15:46] pro wrestling maybe I'm wrong but well good I'm glad because by all means if you disagree with me tell me I'm nuts but I just I've been a pro wrestling fan for a long time not as long as some other

[00:16:11] people so I definitely open and accepting of criticism on my point of view but I mean I remember the pro wrestling I think is was great but the funny thing is almost everybody thinks

[00:16:25] those errors of pro wrestling are great so there's something to that and again I like numbers I'm a big numbers guy there's a blog post on rtmedia.org where I use AEW's ratings to prove my

[00:16:41] point about numbers you can say it's great all you want but if ratings are trending down is it great is the entire rest of the world wrong? definitely numbers really really show to prove numbers really have the proof and everything

[00:17:02] yeah and then Hakeem added they start stories and drop them in a few weeks yeah and I think that's I don't think we call I know somebody called I don't think it was us but somebody called

[00:17:13] I think it might have been shincore net and I think about it you know a lot of people said this they don't understand how Tony Khan is getting book her the year because most of the story lines

[00:17:22] only last about four weeks at most when i a w has a really ideal paper view schedule because there were four or five or year maybe a spot a random one here and there and they did but they

[00:17:38] did what I thought they were going to do and I advised against it there it looks like they're making forbidden door an annual paper view and if you're going to do that well no it looks like they are but

[00:17:51] here's the thing if you're going to do that just do a ring of honor a new Japan did just call it war of the worlds it was an annual thing they did don't call it forbidden door because now that

[00:18:00] name doesn't make any sense and besides now we've got the big secret which was the secret to no one will ask spray is all elite now yeah but he also said he's not it's not gonna be full of

[00:18:11] time just yet until i don't think it's ever i don't think it's ever gonna be full time because if you can work for both why wouldn't you because we know we know Tony Khan is such a mark that he if any

[00:18:23] of his guys want to go to Japan they'll be able to go to Japan so why would you not work both and now if we'll ask spray is on the full time roster for the number two american company he can

[00:18:39] now command more money from new Japan and he'll get it so why would you not do both and are you telling me honestly that if Kenny Omega wanted to headline the Tokyo dome both sides wouldn't be like

[00:18:50] yeah sure absolutely because we want money yeah i agree it's but the and the bad part about this is they have never had a good forbidden door paper view because by the time they got around to it

[00:19:09] they really was no forbidden door and none of these were dream matches these were all mid to high midcard new Japan guys coming over and being like hey fight me AEW person

[00:19:24] it's a good thing i really made about the full bingo or i think that's an annual thing because like now that you have the forbidden door that's gonna be at every year thing i really go be a forbidden door

[00:19:39] now it's a revolving door it is because we're gonna see some of the same guys come over from new Japan two weeks three weeks before maybe a month before forbidden door to start the little

[00:19:51] store lines that they have when i think of a forbidden door you think of people that you wouldn't expect and that could be from any promotions or like not necessarily any promotions in general just

[00:20:06] in general people you would never expect a w to like have that once in lifetime match like that dream match you want to see you see like it makes it harder because like you what i see

[00:20:16] dream matches from like them to be the for a w but there's got to be a lot of money involved in that because you know you know triple it should and they're not worried about a w at all no and i think

[00:20:29] so here's here was my i think i touched on this before i i don't think it's been a mistake yet but all in is another paper view that i don't think should be an annual thing and what i

[00:20:42] what i believe they should do and Tony cons got the money to do this make all and don't even make it defined make it a surprise if you want to have a two years in a row great but don't do it

[00:20:55] every single year make all in a repeat of what it was just an open invite for any professional wrestler hey you got a name and you want to be on this card get a hold of us and they spend an

[00:21:08] entire they spend an entire year building that card and i still mean this is why i wanted to do a review there's not a bad match on that card there are some things that i may not have booked the

[00:21:20] way they did but none of the matches were bad i could play the area i do agree with the all in thing we're all in but that's it goes back to the same thing as if we're been door

[00:21:34] yeah actually i take this so all whether you want to call all in or for bendor but all in could be more of a celebration of independent wrestlers whereas for bendor could be like only big names

[00:21:48] okay i do agree on that but if that's the case there are eight w's have the one show here that's the big show to the rossomania well that's that's their that's their double or nothing

[00:22:01] or at least theoretically it should be because double or nothing was there which which i mean theoretically it should be all out because that commemorates all in and don't even get me started

[00:22:14] on the mistake of having those two paper views all in and all out a week apart which will make sense though because of all in is a celebration of independent wrestling where it's an all

[00:22:25] names come forward see that's the one weird thing well no that's not even true because they had build up for all those matches but it was inter promotional see like and and everybody grew and i think

[00:22:39] triple age now i don't think they would allow him to do this but imagine and doesn't even have to be somebody huge like let's imagine that well actually this is a let's imagine that somebody

[00:22:51] like okay here's an idea for you they're going to put the ring of honor world championship up for grabs at all lander for bendor whatever and this would make all the wrestling nerds pop

[00:23:05] you have anybody who's in w w he who has been in ring of honor champion before whether that be somebody like Seth Rollins who could come back as Tyler Black they don't even have to use his name

[00:23:16] or you know uh damian priest could come back as punishment martina's you know and they don't have to win the bell obviously but imagine the pop and if you set that precedent if you knew

[00:23:31] that literally at all in anything can happen but you do sell out every time you add it and like I say it doesn't have to be anybody big and don't tell me like let's this would never happen i

[00:23:51] want to I want to preface but just imagine if you will if let's say damian priest came and won the ring of honor title and showed up on w w television with that bell don't tell me for a

[00:24:05] second the entire wrestling world wouldn't explode and it would benefit everyone and before you say that would never happen let's remember taz won the ECW title after he was contracted by w

[00:24:18] w he showed up on money that raw with that bell yeah he did in 2000 i believe because what it what so for those for those who don't know what it happened is taz had already left ECW and sign with

[00:24:36] w w my awesome who was the ECW world champion left dcw while he was still the champion and appear on w cw television now here's the problem he still had the bell so Paul hemen sued w cw

[00:24:52] and turn her broadcasting and the agreement was made mic awesome was to show up at the i forget what the event was i think it might have been living dangerously don't quote me on that i can't remember

[00:25:05] but it was an event they had an in apos Indiana and it's the first and only time my jeep this is when Tommy dreamer won the bell i thought um i'm after looked at up but regardless

[00:25:20] mic awesome defended no Tommy dreamer didn't when it taz won it i'm sorry mic awesome lost the ECW belt and taz was a surprise show up that was when ECW and w w had a good working relationship

[00:25:36] so taz won that bell and had it for a while and then he dropped the belt to dreamer i think of a few weeks or a month later but the whole point of it was everybody figured mic awesome was

[00:25:49] going to lose it so you know it's a it's a blow off match what they didn't expect was taz to show up and to win it okay so we got he came by the way he came thank you for your comments we love

[00:26:09] comments it helps drive the conversation but he said that would be awesome and help both promotions it would and then he said imagine if Damian cashin is money in the bank on the ring of

[00:26:19] honor belt never happened but i wish it would i don't think that contract would qualify because i think i think it actually stipulates that's only for a w w championship but wouldn't it be interesting though

[00:26:32] if he'd oh this is pure fantasy booking and it would not find w w but let's say Damian priest as mr. money in the bank once the ring of honor title or no i'm sorry let me

[00:26:44] backtrack if Tyler black came back won the ring of honor title and then let's say he still has the world heavyweight championship and he's got boat Damian cash is in but for the ring of honor title

[00:26:57] it would never happen but it would be fun it would be so cool to see that or maybe Seth gets out of it by saying he didn't specify which belt here take this actually that probably be more

[00:27:15] feasible god that would be funny that would be great and now Damian's like well i have this bell would be great um i have a runner showing up at ring of honor oh was that at ring of honor yeah

[00:27:39] um i'm i did not know that i know she was on the indies but yeah she did attack max with uh can't remember her name uh huh i did not know that was ring of honor yeah she did she did

[00:27:55] tag match with somebody on the indies i don't remember who it was and uh she should have ring of honor uh Friday night or whatever ring of honor was last uh interesting i think it's very

[00:28:10] interesting that it was ring of honor and not a w sure maybe there's hope for Tony yet because one of the other things is ring of honor has basically just become dark and i don't like that at all

[00:28:27] pretty much which listen if if for some reason one of our other's discovery doesn't want ring of honor on television too at least put it on a streaming service other than honor club put it on max

[00:28:49] come on yes do it already so you can watch ring of honor all we want well and that's just it because i i can't watch ring of honor not legally anyway and it's hard to impact can

[00:29:05] test this it's really hard to drum up interest in a product when no one can watch it agreeable i would also really like to see lucha underground make it come back because as

[00:29:15] but i under different management mind you because i don't like how they really really screwed over certain wrestlers well i didn't know this the reason i get chopper for help run it yeah he was uh

[00:29:32] i don't remember his exact role but yeah i know he was involved but i know that he wasn't in the contracts uh in all that because for those who don't know one um there were several uh in fact thunder

[00:29:44] rosa who was co-broom co-broom moon yeah in lucha underground along with rickashae who was Prince puma which this may no sense because i'm pretty sure that everyone who had a contract dispute was also

[00:29:56] under a mask but basically their contracts stated that they could not appear on other television shows of all lucha underground was airing but the problem was they shot lucha underground in a matter of weeks

[00:30:08] and a ran for months on a normal weekly episodic television schedule so if they're under mask in that and the not under mask somewhere else i don't see what issue is well they they weren't

[00:30:21] allowed to apparently that's why they sued um rickashae in particular because he has some pretty distinctive tattoos but who cares they weren't using the same names most of them were under mask like i didn't know thunder rosa was co-broom moon until like a year and a half ago

[00:30:40] which now makes makes a lot of sent all lucha sorris was there too who never is without a mask so i guess but he wasn't there as lucha sorris he was there as vibara

[00:30:50] and he died in character in universe but man i do i miss lucha underground man i i still sing its praises to this day it has some of my favorite matches and moments because i'm not much of

[00:31:03] one for stunts on their own but man lucha underground had a way of for it always being lucha style for the big shows they could pull it off there's one of my favorite moments of lucha underground

[00:31:17] it's when um oh gosh who was it was an helico evil ease and somebody uh it was Matt cross but i go son of havoc was his name in lucha underground they were the unlikely trio's champions who over the course of the season who imagine that story telling

[00:31:37] grew together as a team because they won the championships by happened stance and even lese was injured for the bulk of it i don't think she was legitimately injured but again storyline they defended their championships i believe it was ultimalucha one

[00:31:52] and an helico did i don't even know how high up it was at least 20 feet it was high he jumped off of this i don't even know what you will call it like it's a built-in office but it's about 20

[00:32:07] feet in the air and he jumps off of it does a flying cross body and it's not a small distance he goes more forward than down and just oh my god i think about how bad it would have been if

[00:32:21] that had gone wrong somehow like he would have died he could have died he could have died but i just wow i still go back and watch the clips and then i see what a w did with an helico who is good

[00:32:37] and helico was good jack Evans is good and yet uh you know all thanks to kiem you said no problem you guys have a great podcast will make sure to like share and subscribe and uh tell

[00:32:57] you friends oh like share and subscribe and make sure to make sure to take your right of minutes and snap into a slim gym yeah but yeah so i love i love me some luchia on the ground

[00:33:13] got a little weird at times but i mean it was good and then santos eskabra kinkwara now some of great matches and rick as she is or rick as she is rick as she is rick as she but as

[00:33:26] Prince puma and like their matches he had with rameisterio who i never thought i would never thought i would see rameisterio anywhere but w to be and then he he was at all in too yeah i didn't

[00:33:38] think about that one too what about a very distinctly remember this because this is when i was watching the underground uh pittagoginior in uh vimpero it's it's on my list of top matches

[00:33:52] absolutely loved it and it's a clinic honestly and you you might i want to know if you agree with me on this to me it was a clinic on how uh an older wrestler and a younger wrestler can

[00:34:05] have a match that is not stylistically out for one or the other because pentagon is obviously moving a little slower but and you could tell vampiro is calling the match but they both

[00:34:20] did such a damn good job and at no point did it look like pentagon was carrying him even though you know he was because vampiro you know just with age and being a little

[00:34:33] lusy but vampiro brought it man and vampiro is so giving dependent on because you could tell his goal in that match is to make pentagon look like a rock star and he absolutely succeeded oh yeah

[00:34:45] like at that point pentagon pentagon looked like a world champion anywhere it went that's the reason pentagon got to where he was i still maintain a lot of those guys became stars

[00:34:54] in the united states because of luch underground and for that i will always be thankful as problematic as management was so many of those guys santos escapar pentagon junior rey phenix uh it probably

[00:35:07] put ricochet over the edge into be able to get into ww not that he never would have but you know what i mean like it up to star quality thunder rosa that was our first professional wrestling i

[00:35:17] not for first professional wrestling game but i think that was our first like paid television wrestling gig and then even guys in her a.r. fox he was in luch underground uh swirf strickland

[00:35:31] he was kill shot luch underground evenly soldo even though she's not in a w anymore um you know there there were so many and then there's guys that are still big in Mexico just

[00:35:48] uh it was so good i miss luch underground so much as a uh hokey again luch her on ground was more entertaining than i thought it would be yeah i found it by accident actually funny story

[00:36:00] i actually found it on um i can't remember if it was tell i think it was univision the spanish speaking that were first so i thought i thought it was uh i thought it was a

[00:36:09] Mexican production because on the uh Mexican broadcast it was vampiro speaking spanish and then another gentleman who's name i can't remember but he was uh i think he was commentator for triple a

[00:36:20] i didn't even know there was an english version for the longest time so i'm watching episodes in Spanish and this is before i spoke in Spanish and yet i could still understand the gist of

[00:36:30] what was happening yeah i i think i called it because uh one of my buddies was watching it and uh i went over to his house and noticed it and then that's when i seen the um kind of called

[00:36:45] junior they in paramaic and that's when i started watching it from there yeah i mean i show that match to people who've never seen pro wrestling before and they're like wow i'm i have to give

[00:36:58] this shot and then i say well it's not on anymore but you can still see pentagon um yeah i came again i saw in helico there and he was amazed there were so many wrestlers that i saw

[00:37:08] there for the first time and they were and nobody in that show was bad nobody everybody now granted i know they had the benefit of editing so there were probably at least a

[00:37:21] couple of boxes that were covered up but still i mean you cannot fake what they were doing it was pure and actually they leave in some boxes oh eosky was there so was brine cage brine cage brine cage this is the first place the first place i saw

[00:37:41] brine cage was luch underground uh was it uh was it i believed briefly i could be wrong i'd have to go back and look at that i think so i want to say i think she's looking at first very short time i think she

[00:38:00] was i'd have to go back and double check that but i i think so but yeah man i mean it is damn luch underground was good i would love to see that come back i would love love love love

[00:38:16] season one especially season one of luch underground was perfect i wouldn't have changed a thing and then like a lot of people don't remember this but i remember very distinctly the i wouldn't even call it a feud but the storyline with aro star and drago

[00:38:35] on paper it's so stupid it's so stupid but on the show it was so well done and not even an English i don't think i remember ever seeing that but i thought i can go back and look

[00:38:54] yeah i gosh now i just want to go back oh and then something i did want to touch on luch underground also did some really cool stuff like i think that was a case of having television

[00:39:07] writers actually there was the right mix of television writers and pro wrestling booking because they had a lot of really cool concepts like the entire concept of the gift of the god's championship where holy crap you can have multi-man matches for a medallion

[00:39:24] but you get all those medallions and once all those medallions are taken you have another big you know and i they weren't battle royals i think they were elimination matches which elimination matches are way better than battle royals fight me i don't care

[00:39:39] and then the winner of that gets the gift of the god's belt which was a really cool concept and look awesome it did i do remember seeing a medallion i remember seeing a picture of that and uh i something else i remember from luch underground is they did

[00:39:55] only such crazy and high spots and unbelievable things you never expect to see and they done it and they made it work yeah and consistent yeah it was consistent i mean they didn't bought she the other that we seen of and it was on a market just crazy

[00:40:17] yeah now like i said they had the benefit of editing but everything it was like they took all the elements of luchy leebraid that worked and whether through editing or booking got rid of all the elements that are problematic and it just worked man it was so

[00:40:36] good and here's my thing is i love storytelling and you can't do storytelling like 8 of you try to do those in four weeks or a month i love six months story lights love them

[00:40:51] very much story lines if you have two big guys not necessarily big guys but like two big super stars and they're working together and they're working to cut together and they're getting

[00:41:04] to do a six month storyline now if you got to send my guys yeah you can do two months story line three months story line but then if we store like yeah it just

[00:41:16] we store like just does it work unless oh we need a quick little story like this guys hurt we need to give them a couple weeks well and not only that you can yeah and you can do short-term

[00:41:26] story lines that will work if they can go like okay i'm gonna give a W some credit here or they turned they turned chicken chicken salad um they were debuting Jade Cargo in that

[00:41:40] mix tag with Shaquille O'Neill and it was supposed to be Cody and Brandy for those who don't remember but then they found out Brandy was pregnant so real quick they had to get a substitute

[00:41:53] and they did a little work around and brought in Red Velvet who up to that point and not nobody had heard of but she wasn't a name in the company but they created a they created a story

[00:42:04] in that and then after that match they continued it and Red Velvet had things to do because they took that story that short story that they had to tell out of necessity but then they carried it and somewhere along the way AEW lost the ability to carry

[00:42:26] the story forward it's like oh it's done now and yes you're right Hakeem John Morris and was a great heal that was the first time I saw Ty of Alcory was in uh blue chunder ground man i'm just gonna we

[00:42:48] got we had to do a blue chunder ground appreciation episode sometime yeah i'm gonna go back to the wild ice and stuff i will speak Spanish in that episode if you want it America

[00:43:03] i will sit here while you do it in no comprande it it's okay because Matt Stryker helped provide the English commentary and Matt Stryker is really good on commentary by the way

[00:43:20] I'm done right that he was he was getting it in for uh ECW too I think for a little bit he was he was very good and i thought Matt Stryker was underrated as a performer too nobody takes a DDT

[00:43:30] like Matt Stryker and not only that i mean he was he was just a good chicken shit heal i think he wasn't underutilized in ECW they used him a lot and i love the gimmick it was stupid in

[00:43:46] the best possible way he was a teacher who just he was just a jerk teacher who also wrestled and then took it in the ring and did the same thing. I bet why is he not working somewhere it does

[00:44:01] he not want to that's gotta be it. I don't know i don't know what he's doing anymore these days i had a I mean i have a hurty thing unless he went back to being a teacher maybe that's what Shane

[00:44:14] Douglas did now not a lot of people know that Shane Douglas was a teacher before and after he retired from wrestling he went back to being a team man page was also a teacher but now he's making that

[00:44:27] sweet sweet AEW money which is not like he was teaching when he was still a new Japaner ring of honor he had stopped teaching before then but but you know Brian one of the things again help you

[00:44:42] enjoy your pro wrestling is when your house doesn't smell like wet assholes and in order to help your house not smell like wet assholes Stevie Wix can help with that with their new you can't even

[00:44:55] see that because of the fire don't worry i'm going to play you some ASMR here in a second you can have a fantastic smelling house and give thanks with the grateful and gather thanks giving

[00:45:08] woodwick candle set from Stevie Wix available now until the day before Thanksgiving and if you use promo code down at checkout you say 10% off of your entire order and i'm not supposed to tell you

[00:45:21] that and i'm not supposed to tell you this but that code never expires so you can use it every time you shop but what's cool about these woodwix is just imagine you're watching your pro wrestling and you

[00:45:33] just you just want to relax a bit on that commercial break where you hit the mute button and then you get to hear wake up we're not done with the podcast yet but i thought you were going to sleep there Brian

[00:45:56] oh i didn't know i don't know it's talking about whoah well i guess i'm so sleepy i don't know if you could hear it but it's a crackling and they have two woodwix in them so you get double the crackle but you could hear it

[00:46:11] i know they're very loud in person like i'm always never sure and i was also trying not to send my microphone on fire that would have been a bad night yeah that's some good ASMR at

[00:46:24] thanks buddy oh hochem i love you being in our chat my friend can i call you my friend because you've been here before i feel like we know you and you told me how to pronounce your name

[00:46:37] so yes use promo code down to get your thanksgiving and christmas candles are also available if thanksgiving's not your thing christmas candles are on there now too and that code still applies so and they make fantastic gifts they make fantastic gifts who doesn't want a christmas candle

[00:46:55] christmas time every woman on the planet and some of the guys so it's it's a pretty good bet that's all i'm saying but you know what else is pretty good bet betting on Cody Rhodes really not no you disagree

[00:47:18] no Cody Rhodes just that it will be a stellar performance okay i guess historically betting on Cody Rhodes isn't necessarily the best bet if you're talking about winning winning he wins in the end though he beat Brock Lesnar i mean that's about it hey

[00:47:41] but one tag titles too didn't they yeah what's the way on the finish story we were right for a whole year Cody we've been waiting longer than a year uh ha ha keem thank you

[00:47:55] for that he said i love being here it's like sitting down and talking some wrestling with friends that's actually what this show was supposed to be that's why we love audience involvement because

[00:48:05] we we usually have a loose title but if you've watched more than one episode you know we go all over the map it just comes up so that's ultimately what we want this podcast to be and

[00:48:18] i look forward to the day when i have to when i have to tell people they have to use super chats because there's too many people in the feed not because i want to make the money although

[00:48:26] i mean i do want to make the money but i want the chat to be that crazy to where we have to have people do super chats otherwise we can't keep up with it that's what i look forward to

[00:48:38] one of these days we'll have it but if we have honestly if we have two or three people in the chat that's great because that's a full blown conversation and i apologize my throat starting to get dry

[00:48:49] so you might hear it in my voice any who so yeah we we've been bad at really done that much complaining about wrestling i mean a little bit we've been hard getting back to the good old days

[00:49:06] hmm oh yeah i guess we can complain a little bit on Cody Rhodes because i'm not sure i kind of i'm one of the people who still wishes he'd want it at WrestleMania i understand why they didn't but

[00:49:26] so here's the new rumors i'm hearing about that okay so the big rumor i'm hearing is it's gonna be WrestleMania 40 or is it WrestleMania 40 next um i don't i think so so the big rumor

[00:49:44] is just two of them that one wrong was going to keep it in break hoax and record i wouldn't be surprised for that in two um Cody will finally beat him but it'll be in the i-quit match

[00:50:00] ooh okay i i like that which i do also because it's not one was not getting pinned yeah so that's a good that's a good exit strategy to get the belt on Cody and i was thinking

[00:50:18] about this the other day so imagine if you will let's say Cody wants the belt at WrestleMania and then eventually in this this could be how WWE gets some credibility to that world heavyweight

[00:50:30] championship so let's say Cody wants the belt and then not immediately after but not long after Seth Rollins calls him out and says hey man you know you're the universal champion well

[00:50:43] I'm the world champion you know why don't we see who's belt means the most i mean you could do that you could are you driving that i am okay well okay okay you're just going to a

[00:51:01] different building you're not like okay let's let's let's not have a wreck on air although if you do have a wreck on air we're going to put that all over social media as long as you're okay

[00:51:09] yeah i would be okay with that no i'm just driving from building okay that's good so but anyway Seth Rollins calls him out and then think about the buildup they don't do it immediately again there's

[00:51:20] some talking back and forth and then finally they have a belt not a belt for belt match but a match where you get bragging rights how different would that be oh that just sounds like such a

[00:51:34] survivor series type thing though survivor series later in the year man good but i you really think they're gonna let Cody hold it that long i think they should i think they should too but do you

[00:51:48] think Seth is really holding that long maybe not and I guess it doesn't necessarily have to be Seth but it would be good but now the one the one flaw in that storyline is all Cody would have to say

[00:52:00] is like well Seth when i came back from the beelie's that you talked about or so you say i beat you at Reffel Mania you put that in there i got that did you got me that got me that was pretty good

[00:52:23] a rational mania baby i came back and i beat you at Reffel Mania Seth freaking Rollins i beat you with a friggin how did he beat him with a Cody cutter with a little extra with a little

[00:52:40] extra butter and a completely torn pectoral muscle baby that doesn't mean beat him at home so that's right it was i want to sell yeah i know who came my agrees as i have a bad feeling the

[00:52:54] Cody isn't holding the belt for too long which is a shame not to take anything away from Roman Reims because i i think he not single handedly but he was integral in resurrecting WWE

[00:53:05] for me at least i think so yeah i don't i don't think that's disputable um ironically when they just let Roman be Roman uh imagine that i don't think anybody expected Roman to hold the title

[00:53:19] this long not initially but now it's like he's got to be home goods record WWE has to have Roman Reims beat Holden's raster record to basically solidify like defend their decision to make Roman the guy like they have to which is hilarious to me because they're like

[00:53:36] Roman Reims is breaking all these records it's like did we forget that it's a story line well here's my thing to like oh good definitive title whole hell of a lot more in Roman has

[00:53:49] these worked a whole hell of a lot more shows than Roman has. Holden even wrestled oh what was what is he say? Holden had this thing where you're starting with how he's actually

[00:54:01] able to travel back in time coming from Japan to the US from the US to Japan so i don't remember I wish i could remember because it was funny. I also hear that Roman's body is a lot of

[00:54:17] rough a lot of rough shape it has to be like from like the leukemia and everything and then it coming back and you know what i even i i always forget about because he just looks so damn

[00:54:28] healthy all the time i forgot about the leukemia yeah he's got to be everybody is like well not everybody some people give Roman shig is like oh he never defends a belt i'm like okay when it wasn't that long ago when the world champion

[00:54:41] was an on tv every week it was a treat to see them i mean Roman still isn't on tv every week i mean he went on tv for like a whole month and a half at one point

[00:54:56] well right that's what i'm saying though is we got used to the scene at era where i get it it works for that character but unfortunately because of how long he was on top

[00:55:07] and but he still won much better although i don't think but he still was necessarily on every week when he was the world heavyweight champion but sena was constantly on tv

[00:55:19] but yeah i hear his body is a lot of bad shapes i i do think the reason why they're doing all this part time stuff is so that it can go so hard when he is in a ring yeah and you know what's funny

[00:55:30] that was the logic you know that was the logic of the world champion even especially in a system like the in w way where you had multiple territories the in w way champion traveled yes but he

[00:55:41] wasn't i mean back then that was a little bit different it's because he did work more than was perceived but you know in w way world champ wasn't taken bumps left right in center it just wasn't happening

[00:55:55] because he had to be able to you know keep wrestling yeah and same with Roman like i don't want Roman on tv taken bumps every week that's silly i'd like to get away from that

[00:56:10] just like i don't want mjf on tv every week taken bumps and oh my god he's not but hands down and i really i give it to mjf i mean i really got since he as became world champion and right before he was world champion i think

[00:56:30] this mjf right now is the best mjf we've ever seen i never thought i would agree with that but i guess i just i was so hesitant to let go of him as like a hardcore heel because we just don't

[00:56:46] have heels anymore i don't know i don't i don't i don't want to say he's not a heel though no i i know he's a heel but like he's got a best friend now and he's genuinely heartfelt

[00:57:00] for the fans now nobody's doing nobody can do that stick he's doing quite like mjf and you just reminded me of a question i have for you later but still talking about mjf

[00:57:13] i don't dislike it i'm not gonna lie i i like it there's been some legitimately comedic moments i think adam coal kind of looks like a moron but they're it's working you know it i'm not

[00:57:24] taking anything away from it but mjf again mjf is so damn good and now he can even say you know like you want me to be a heel great i'm a heel you want me to be a baby face mjf can be a baby

[00:57:35] face but i'm still scumbag yeah i think he's literally set as much because he hasn't forgotten his character which i think happens all too often when there's heel face turns

[00:57:46] yeah it's like oh i'm a good guy now where it's like no you were a pretty terrible person that doesn't all just go away you can tell a story where that fades away slowly i mean Seth

[00:58:00] for all of this doing a perfect job like he is now too like he was like he was that heel where he took out malica blacks eye and he took out remasteros eye but like that transition

[00:58:13] to be in almost pretty much a baby face now as much as i dislike the gimmick you're right i and it's not that he's a baby face it's what he's doing it's it's weird to me and again just

[00:58:25] like the domineering thing i know i'm wrong but it's weird to me i i thought that somebody somebody got into a comment fight with me on that because when i put that short where i was

[00:58:39] saying that i didn't like the domineering stuff but i put it on take on and somebody was arguing with me in the comments i'm like dude i said at the beginning that i know i'm wrong i'm

[00:58:49] just telling you what i see and i don't i don't get why people like it but they obviously do i'm not arguing with you because i know i'm wrong here yeah like people don't seeing somebody's

[00:59:02] theme song like that if he's not over i just think it's weird well buddy i've got two minutes and i got a clock in okay so my my question for you real quick and then we'll close up is who do you

[00:59:16] think his behind the devil mask who do i think it is yep i think it's brick baker i think it's mjf i really think it's brick baker and if there is a why i say that is because when they were doing

[00:59:32] that song for all the the girls in a w when it came to the scene with brick baker she had a fingers up like this doing the devil horns oh maybe although i did read a rumor that cm punk is

[00:59:43] wearing the devil mask and as i don't think that's the case but boy what i love that he's he's one of the big rumors to be the fifth man for uh war games see that that one i believe a little bit more

[00:59:57] well let's be in chicago yeah and they just from the last week on raw we're Cody and j were talking and there was five stars on the back what it's the punk have on his tights well but that's that's

[01:00:09] because that says chicago flag but maybe maybe i would love to see i just want to see him punk back on tv now it will be rebsault in the wound for toning con if cm punk goes back to ww because that's like see

[01:00:22] you stupid well the other ones orton's the rumor so i can see orton being more true than cm punk i think i would rather see just for a w sake i think i would rather cm punk as the man in the

[01:00:38] devil mask because oh my gosh couldn't you imagine doing a program with punk as the heel and mjf is the baby face yeah they can pick up right where they left off too that's the beauty of it but

[01:00:48] anyway i will close it because i know you gotta get to work no god the game james elzworth is behind the mask he's too tall the devil's too tall it's not the hilarious that would be what we call

[01:01:00] a short term pop but anyway thank you guys thanks everybody for enjoying this episode of down the middle we have a surprise coming up for you this coming week i won't spoil it it'll be

[01:01:10] surprise so subscribe to the channel so you get notified and as always please like share and subscribe and if you prefer to listen to our podcast you can check it out on all the audio streaming platforms

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[01:01:42] and help us keep the lights on over here thank you and good night Brian have a good night at work and we will see you guys later because i'm not gonna tell you yeah well